Phil Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 I've been shooting IDPA the last several months and my biggest pet peeve about IDPA is the tac load or reload with retention under time. I just don't' see the rationale in doing a tac load as fast as you can. Maybe because mine suck so bad? So necessity being the mother of all invention I found a way for me to do them, that is slicker than fresh deer guts on a door knob. I tried it last night in a local match and it worked so smoothly the SO couldn't say anything but laugh at how simple it was I'm sure I'm going to get a FTDR or some other penalty for it from another SO even though I can't see why at the moment. I'm just happy I got away with it once. Maybe you guys can tell me if it's legal or not. I started behind a wide barricade with 3 targets on the left and 3 on the right, I engaged the 3 on the left with 2 rds each, then at the same time i was reaching for my spare mag and moving to the right side I stuck the mag well of my pistol in my vest pocket, and dumped the mag then brought the pistol forward at the same time as my spare mag came up, loaded and engaged the 3 targets on the right side. Then I placed the mag well again back in the vest pocket and advanced 7 yards toward another barricade (keeping the muzzle down range) while reaching for my next spare mag, I got to cover and dumped the mag again in the pocket while bringing the pistol up to meet at the same time with the spare mag, seated it and engaged the last 3 targets. I was laughing at myself for how smooth it went, I ran the course in 11. & small change with 5 points down. Now it being the first time I had done it in front of any one much less during a match. I was being very aware of my muzzle and not to dump the mag before I hit cover. I don't have any special pockets made for this. Now am I right that a tac load is when you retrieve your spare before removing & storing the partial mag and a reload with retention is when you remove & store the partial mage first? So I guess I could do this either way? Any way it was funny and it got people laughing as well as thinking. I may try it again being prepared for that FTDR. Hell I may even adopt this method in IPSC just to keep my mags out of the dirt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Yankee Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 This type of "gaming" is why shirt pockets have been dis-allowed as places to store partial magazines. It may take a while but I won't be surprised when "Uncle Bill" decrees from high that "Vest pockets are no long allowed to be used to store magazines during reloads" Now to the meat of your problem,,, that is tactical reloads (or reloads w/ retention) under time. I, as match director, will not require such a reload during a scenario type CoF. Why? Because if you're not in the "lull" of the battle, then why would you do it? Perhaps because you've secured your area, and are about to move into the unknown? I do allow it, as an option for those that choose to do so. (I being one, that would not like to head out into the unknown without a fully loaded firearm.) If it is on the clock, then a slidelock reload is far "faster", even more "realistic" unless you've trained youself to the point of never moving from cover with a downloaded gun. This is why I much prefer "blind stages" for IDPA competition. By blind I mean anyone that helps set-up will not shoot for score. Or having the ability to move threat and non-threat targets around between shooters without changing the engagement time. If you give the shooter a minimum briefing, such as each threat needs 3 hits scored, you must move to the exit, etc.. and turn them loose, you will have a much better "IDPA Spirited" stage. There's my $.02. (Edited by Southern Yankee at 9:13 pm on June 7, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 7, 2002 Author Share Posted June 7, 2002 I like your idea of a blind stage, wish we had enough SO's to volunteer to run a match and not shoot. I did shoot a course once that had a par time to compleat a building search, and it went fairly well requiring only one SO to build it first and not run it, the others would SO after they had shot and understood the course. I really liked it and did tac loads before continuing or leaving cover. Need more of those courses in this Game. I totally agree my reload was gaming, no doubt about it, I was looking for an advantage and found one, one that was not necessarily unavailable or even advantageous for that matter to others, but it sure took time off my tac loads, LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Phil, As a certified gamer, I applaude your ingenious technique and commend you on a job well done. LMAO Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Assuming the SO's / match directors were willing to let it slide, from the rulebook "A Tac-Load is done at the gun ..." which would make your technique a Reload with Retention no matter what order you performed it because the reload is not done "at the gun". Also as of the 05/02 rulebook a Reload with Retention is not an option if a Tactical Reload is specified in the course description. I rarely see course descriptions stating Reload with Retention (where either is acceptable) so that would leave only "reload as necessary" courses. On the other hand at the clubs I shoot at that technique would lead to a Failure To Do Right penalty as this issue came up last year. Since one of our local SO's is also the Area Coordinator it didn't get too far. I wouldn't suggest trying it at a sanctioned match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Phil, Bill Schwab said: "As a certified gamer, I applaude your ingenious technique and commend you on a job well done. LMAO " I say... DITTO! I am not up on all the IDPA rules...but if I wanted to get away with that I'd change the wording a bit. Instead of..."I stuck the mag well of my pistol in my vest pocket"...try something like..."I brought my gun to the guard position"...or, something that sounds equally tactical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Phil, Looks like we will have to induct you into the "Gamers Hall of Fame" I checked the rule book and it looks like you are OK as long as the match description said "reload with retention" or "any IDPA reload". Was your muzzle direction OK close to your body like that? I find that I can do a "reload with retention" faster by just putting the ejected mag in the left front pocket of my jeans as I reach for the full mag. As for why we do Tac Loads? We never know how long the "lull in the action" will be. That is why a Tac Load should be in everyones bag of tricks. I prefer to make most of the stages I design "any IDPA reload is allowed". Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Your vest pocket idea is great!! If you really want fast bungy the first mag to the lanyard loop of the gun...hey, it's retained isnt it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 7, 2002 Author Share Posted June 7, 2002 Thanks "game guys" for the support, I'll remember it when i'm looking at that 20 second FTDR LOL. To be honest my first thought was to place a 20oz speaker magnet in my front pocket LOL but that got shot down right away The COF called for reload as necessary, there was never a danger of covering anything with the muzzle, no more so than during a normal draw. I'm more worried about that, then getting a FTDR. I try to remember that it's only a game and all in fun, and in order to play we may have to do some things we wouldn't normally do. Some times to remind myself of this I will look at a course asking myself, if the 3 bad guys on the other side of the barricade where any of the 3 shooters standing around me how much of a chance of survival do I have shooting it the way the COF reads? I think you'll find for the most part that your pretty much toast regardless of who you are or who your shooting with. So you might as well have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Quote: from vincent on 9:51 am on June 7, 2002 Assuming the SO's / match directors were willing to let it slide, from the rulebook "A Tac-Load is done at the gun ..." which would make your technique a Reload with Retention no matter what order you performed it because the reload is not done "at the gun". Also as of the 05/02 rulebook a Reload with Retention is not an option if a Tactical Reload is specified in the course description. I rarely see course descriptions stating Reload with Retention (where either is acceptable) so that would leave only "reload as necessary" courses. On the other hand at the clubs I shoot at that technique would lead to a Failure To Do Right penalty as this issue came up last year. Since one of our local SO's is also the Area Coordinator it didn't get too far. I wouldn't suggest trying it at a sanctioned match. This is the correct answer. I run a weekly IDPA match and if a competitor did this I might let it slide once. I'd give him/her a warning however. A true "gamer" wouldn't do it. They know the rules better than most people and usually just look for was to cut time within the rules. I sometimes still force tac-reloads on the clock in my COF's only because I like the practice for the classifier. The ones that get people crazy are the forced tac-reloads off the clock at the end of the stage. Those I do just to try to get people in the habit of recharging their weapon instead of going into autopilot mode of "unload and show clear". I first experience that at a sanctioned state match a couple of years ago where you would get a procedural if you didn't do it. You can imagine the stir that created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Quote: from Phil on 2:07 pm on June 7, 2002 Some times to remind myself of this I will look at a course asking myself, if the 3 bad guys on the other side of the barricade where any of the 3 shooters standing around me how much of a chance of survival do I have shooting it the way the COF reads? I think you'll find for the most part that your pretty much toast regardless of who you are or who your shooting with. So you might as well have fun! For your reloads- I wouldn't try it at a sanctioned match! For the above comment - you hit the nail on the head! I am in the top 5% of my clubs shooters and I wouldn't want even the lowest 3 of 5% of our normal monthly competitors to be my adversaries. Larry P Its better to burn out...than to fade away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 I have a question regarding the RWR and TL! I know the TL is supposed to be faster in the Real World scenarios because it keeps your gun unloaded for less time. Anybody have any idea how to measure how much less time your gun is unloaded? I have a sneaking suspicion that it is a lot less than we have been lead to believe! The total time for my TL and RWR is about .5 second difference, last I measured (almost a year ago) I could do a RWR in 2.25 – 2.5 and a TL in 2.5 – 3. I can do a speed load in 1 second and Slide lock in 1.5 avg so we can’t be talking about more than 1 second IF that! Just curious! Larry P Its better to burn out...than to fade away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Sounds good to me Phil. Now when Fuhr Billy finds out he is going to make us all shoot naked...... And I don't know about you but the thought of Hackathorn naked kind of turns my stomach... LOL... Always think outside the box...KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 Kylel, I did it last night after the match they had a little fun shoot 7 yards one shot tac-reload one shot. I pulled the pocket trick for fun as it wasn't for score and ran it in 3.48? clean, The SO almost droped the timer & wet himself he was laughing so hard at how smooth it looked. Shooting naked, God I hate the thought of a relaod with retention. LOL It's all in fun till someobdy gets their eye put out Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Quote: from Larrys1911 on 1:35 am on July 6, 2002 I have a question regarding the RWR and TL! I know the TL is supposed to be faster in the Real World scenarios because it keeps your gun unloaded for less time. Anybody have any idea how to measure how much less time your gun is unloaded? I have a sneaking suspicion that it is a lot less than we have been lead to believe! The total time for my TL and RWR is about .5 second difference, last I measured (almost a year ago) I could do a RWR in 2.25 – 2.5 and a TL in 2.5 – 3. I can do a speed load in 1 second and Slide lock in 1.5 avg so we can’t be talking about more than 1 second IF that! Just curious! Larry P Its better to burn out...than to fade away! Actually the way to measure how much of a time advantage the tac load provides would be to: Grab the spare mag and move it to the butt of the gun. Timer is running already. Fire one round (just to register on the timer) swap magazines, and fire one more round. That'll tell you how short the time is to just swap mags at the gun. I suspect it'll be less than a second with practice. Alternately you could start the swap on the timer's beep and fire a one handed round at a seven yard (or any distance target) just to see how quickly you could reload the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 If it hasn't been mentioned yet...going off the beep will add your reaction time into the equation (+.25 or so). When it is time to reload in a match...you know it is coming (well, you should). There is no reaction time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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