IDPA Classifier -- SSP?

[justaute]

Has anyone shot a Shadow/75/SP-01 in IDPA SSP Classifier? Question ---> Does the hammer need to be down for every holster draw (each string) or just at the beginning of each stage?

Thanks.

[blind bat]

As far as I know the hammer has to be lowered before holstered. However, you may run cocked and locked in ESP. That's where I run my 85.

[ck1]

As far as I know the hammer has to be lowered before holstered. However, you may run cocked and locked in ESP. That's where I run my 85.

This. That said... As far as I know, and I've asked a couple long-time SO's about this, there's no rule that says you can't cock the hammer back with your thumb for an SA first shot if you want to.

I haven't shot a classifier with my CZ yet but pretty sure I'll thumb-cock for SA on stage 3, for most of the strings in 1 and 2 it'd cost more time than it's worth, but at 15-20 yards might work out better if it means a 0 instead of -3 or worse.

[justaute]

Thanks, guys.

ck1--- I have been thinking about something similar. While my DA trigger-pull is getting better, I think stage 3 would still present too much challenge under time-constraint.

As far as I know the hammer has to be lowered before holstered. However, you may run cocked and locked in ESP. That's where I run my 85.

This. That said... As far as I know, and I've asked a couple long-time SO's about this, there's no rule that says you can't cock the hammer back with your thumb for an SA first shot if you want to.

I haven't shot a classifier with my CZ yet but pretty sure I'll thumb-cock for SA on stage 3, for most of the strings in 1 and 2 it'd cost more time than it's worth, but at 15-20 yards might work out better if it means a 0 instead of -3 or worse.

[Steve J]

If you start even one string in single action mode it is no longer an SSP classifier. It becomes and ESP classifier.

For SSP the start condition always has to be DA/SA decocked.

[justaute]

Understood. However, the method suggested by ck1, which is thumb-cock the hammer after draw should be ok. right?

If you start even one string in single action mode it is no longer an SSP classifier. It becomes and ESP classifier.

For SSP the start condition always has to be DA/SA decocked.

[Steve J]

Understood. However, the method suggested by ck1, which is thumb-cock the hammer after draw should be ok. right?

If you start even one string in single action mode it is no longer an SSP classifier. It becomes and ESP classifier.

For SSP the start condition always has to be DA/SA decocked.

Yes, but you're not going to go very far doing that. Learn to manage the DA first shot and you'll be much better off.

[ck1]

Understood. However, the method suggested by ck1, which is thumb-cock the hammer after draw should be ok. right?

If you start even one string in single action mode it is no longer an SSP classifier. It becomes and ESP classifier.

For SSP the start condition always has to be DA/SA decocked.

Yes, but you're not going to go very far doing that. Learn to manage the DA first shot and you'll be much better off.

The name of the game is making a choice of what works better for a given situation, balancing accuracy with speed. So think what we're talking about is that there may be certain situations where thumb-cocking the hammer in order to get the higher probability good hit from the easier-to-shoot SA mode makes good sense.

Not saying to not practice DA shots, just saying on a limited COFwhere you cannot make up shots and misses can destroy your score, using up a half a second to get a "0" might be the better move sometimes, as for most of us a "0" at 25 yards may be say 9 out of 10 shooting SA, where as even with practice that average will go down shooting DA, say 7 out of 10 or worse...

[Steve J]

You can pull the trigger for the DA first shot without moving the front sight just like revolver shooters do. It will always be faster than cocking the hammer and there's no reason not to be accurate with it.

[beltjones]

I tend to agree with Steve J.

I can see on the last string (where you start standing and then draw and drop to a knee) that you might be able to cock the hammer while taking a knee, thus getting the benefit of a SA pull without the time penalty associated with cocking the hammer.

Otherwise, the only way to know for sure is to test it. Get a timer and find out how long it really takes to draw, cock the hammer, re-grip, align your sights, and fire an SA shot. My hunch is that overall you will be faster with a DA -1 than with an SA -0 where you have to manually cock the hammer to get the SA first shot. Let's also consider the "disaster factor" that comes with cocking the hammer. What if your thumb slips off and you have to try again? Or if you only get to half-cock, you waste the time, yet still have a DA trigger pull. Or what if your grip is compromised, and every shot thereafter is inaccurate?

[ck1]

I tend to agree with Steve J.

I can see on the last string (where you start standing and then draw and drop to a knee) that you might be able to cock the hammer while taking a knee, thus getting the benefit of a SA pull without the time penalty associated with cocking the hammer.

Otherwise, the only way to know for sure is to test it. Get a timer and find out how long it really takes to draw, cock the hammer, re-grip, align your sights, and fire an SA shot. My hunch is that overall you will be faster with a DA -1 than with an SA -0 where you have to manually cock the hammer to get the SA first shot. Let's also consider the "disaster factor" that comes with cocking the hammer. What if your thumb slips off and you have to try again? Or if you only get to half-cock, you waste the time, yet still have a DA trigger pull. Or what if your grip is compromised, and every shot thereafter is inaccurate?

To each his own, "different strokes for different folks" as they say. I have no doubt that a regular DA pull is faster, I just don't necessarily think it has as high of a probability of being accurate so if one decicided to thumb-cock on the way up after the draw it might work out better, for some guys, some of the time...

BJ, I agree with what you're saying about the possible "disaster factor" entering into the equation and also that maybe a -1 DA beating a thumbed-to-SA 0, that said (and I'm only speaking for myself here), on stage 3, strings 1 & 2, if I know I'm going to do it and I am prepared to thumb-back the hammer as my gun comes up after it's cleared the holster, since the strings require drawing then leaning out from behind cover, after the buzzer sounds, I'll have the hammer-back in SA-mode and be acquiring my sight picture real-close, if not in exactly the same amount of time as it would take for me to leave the gun in DA, and if you were to factor in the slow pull I'd use to ensure a good first hit, I'd bet that in my case the thumb-cock-into-SA would likely save 2 seconds or more (assuming the DA's aren't -3 or misses) against getting -1's pulling DA for the 2 required 20yard shots I'm talking about. In my experience stage 3 is "make or break", and I'd be more worried about the possible "disaster factor" of getting -3's or even being off the paper on the 2 DA shots at that distance while going fast.

For me, string 3 from behind the barrel, I'd probably just shoot it DA as it's 5 yards closer.

Let's not beat a dead horse here, I think either way is ok depending on the particular shooter, and if in the future I get more confident in my DA-accuracy at further distances while on the clock I may change my tune... to be quite honest, I'm still really new to even having a DA pull to think about as up until now it's always been Glocks or 1911's for me, in fact, if anything, I've actually been really surprised in how good my DA hits have been thus far in matches, so who knows..? maybe I'll come around sooner rather than later.

Edited November 10, 2010 by ck1