Unpopular question

[Jake Di Vita]

I had a big response typed up.

Suffice it to say, I don't condone cheating. I just don't care about cheaters.

That will very likely be mangled and misconstrued, but try to understand how I mean it.

[G-ManBart]

I had a big response typed up.

Suffice it to say, I don't condone cheating. I just don't care about cheaters.

That will very likely be mangled and misconstrued, but try to understand how I mean it.

I understand that Jake. Just try to realize that at your level you can do that...simply outwork and outperform the cheater (which you'll likely do anyway!) so it's a non-factor.

Think of the career C shooter. He/she has all sorts of time and financial demands and only gets to shoot so many matches per year, and only so much practice. He gets to a big match and watches a fellow C shooter in the same division cheating...and they know it. They're not going to beat the cheater, who's probably a sandbagger on top of it. Think how frustrating that would be. They may not want to say something because they have an interest in it and that leaves them screwed. If we do a good/better job of identifying those few people out there, the problem goes away. R,

Edited April 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[kgunz11]

I think I do Jake if you just write them off as not worth the effort to mention/do anything. And I agree, the cheaters aren't worth the effort, but in my best Capt. America voice, the other shooters are. That's all I'm saying.

I'd like to believe like most here it was a mistake made, but some people just have questionable character. Those people with questionable character make me uncomfortable with my wife and so many friends sharing the same range space.

[moverfive]

Honestly, how often does 'cheating' really occur? Yes, we all may have a couple of examples from our years of shooting, but does anyone see this on any form of a regular basis?

And when you did see something that wasn't "right," are you sure it wasn't an unintentional act on the individual's behalf? And even then, how often do you see that? .....maybe better asked, how often do you see that from an experienced shooter?

Maybe my shooting glasses are a little too rose-colored, but I just don't see this in our game to any degree worth talking about.

That is why I believe the polite approach to the shooter that did something 'wrong' is always going to be the right way to go.....and then in those rare cases, do what you think is best and who cares if you offend that person.

[Jake Di Vita]

Bart,

I was a C class shooter with financial demands. Now I'm a GM with financial demands. My opinion on this issue hasn't changed from the beginning.

I think a few of you guys haven't read my posts very closely. I said I wouldn't go running to the RO if I thought somebody was cheating, I also said talking to them privately was a very reasonable option.

I have lost major matches (as a B shooter and a GM) because my closest competitor cheated. I didn't cry about it, I went home, worked harder, and got better.

As long as we keep score, people will cheat. It's human nature to take the easy way out...sadly.

Bobby,

No, you don't. As far as I know, you've never even met me. And I'll ask you politely to not do it again please. I can't remember ever treating you disrespectfully. I'd appreciate you returning the favor.

[G-ManBart]

Bart,

I was a C class shooter with financial demands. Now I'm a GM with financial demands. My opinion on this issue hasn't changed from the beginning.

I think a few of you guys haven't read my posts very closely. I said I wouldn't go running to the RO if I thought somebody was cheating, I also said talking to them privately was a very reasonable option.

I have lost major matches (as a B shooter and a GM) because my closest competitor cheated. I didn't cry about it, I went home, worked harder, and got better.

As long as we keep score, people will cheat. It's human nature to take the easy way out...sadly.

Jake, nobody said they should go home crying about it and I think your responses are more and more emotion driven as this goes on...sorry, but that's how it seems. The fact is most people are about as good as they're going to get so they can't just go "get better" and beat them like you have. They shouldn't have to work extra to beat a cheater and suggesting that is the solution is silly. If that's what you want to do, beause you cling to some misguided concept that "tattle tales" are bad, so be it, but you're not doing the sport or anybody in it a favor.

Regardless, you shouldn't have lost to someone else who cheated.

Not doing anything about it is the easy way out, and trying to handle it yourself isn't doing anything about it (at least nothing constructive). Sorry, but that's the truth. Cheaters won't stop unless they get caught. A polite word, that may turn into an argument that ruins your match and their match isn't fixing the problem. It may make them shape up for the rest of the stages, but they'll be back at it at the next match. Also, I'm not talking about if you just sorta think someone is cheating, but you're sure of it. The solution is to tell the staff, who's job it is to handle such things, and let them handle it. Your intervention isn't necessary, or really appropriate in that situation.

[kgunz11]

Bobby,

No, you don't. As far as I know, you've never even met me. And I'll ask you politely to not do it again please. I can't remember ever treating you disrespectfully. I'd appreciate you returning the favor.

I need to know what you want me to "not do again". No Jake, I've never met you, and I don't recall being disrespectful to you either. Please point it out to me so I'll know what comment you took offense to. Of course it is acceptable to have an opinion different from yours and that not be disrespectful isn't it?

[kgunz11]

I'm not going to on my watch.

Alright Captain America. Like I said earlier, go ahead and go on your crusade of eliminating all cheating everywhere. Forgive me if I don't join you. Or don't.

You really don't know me well enough to tell me to "grow a pair" Bobby.

And I'm sorry, that really wasn't directed at you, but in general to anyone. I can see how you thought it was as I replied to your post. I also don't remember reading that the first time around. Did you go back and use your mod powers to edit it without an edit tag or was it always there? Because I would have already stated the first sentence of this post had I seen it the first time.

[Jake Di Vita]

Bart,

I wasn't getting emotional. I'm also not interested in bickering about this any further. I fully understand your position, but you aren't changing my mind and I'm not trying to change yours.

Also, since you've rabidly attacked the first post I made in this thread, you should know that the "tattle-tale" comment that rubs you so wrong was said in jest. Hence the wink at the end of the sentence.

Agree to disagree.

Bobby,

Nope, that was already there. Fair enough about it not being directed at me.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Corey]

In the words of Jackie Moon... "E.L.E.!"

google it if you dont get it

[G-ManBart]

Bart,

I wasn't getting emotional. I'm also not interested in bickering about this any further. I fully understand your position, but you aren't changing my mind and I'm not trying to change yours.

Also, since you've rabidly attacked the first post I made in this thread, you should know that the "tattle-tale" comment that rubs you so wrong was said in jest. Hence the wink at the end of the sentence.

Agree to disagree.

Jake,

Your comments have seemed emotional about this all along and I didn't rabidly attack anything; I've made simple, direct statements. It's the "you rabidly attacked me" part that makes it come off as an emotional response. I'm not so rubbed wrong by the tattle tale comment, but I do think it's pretty telling. If that isn't what you believe you wouldn't be so vocally against alerting the proper people to a cheater.

If you don't do anything about it, you ARE condoning it, no matter how much you say you aren't.

Imagine a guy that shoots a good match at his Sectional and gets "beaten" by a cheater to win the class. The honest guy doesn't get an automatic, less expensive slot to Nationals and the cheater does. Just how is that fair, and just how is the honest guy supposed to make up for it by harder work? He can't...at least for another year. He shouldn't have to get on the waiting list and pay more. Maybe he has to reserve vacation time well in advance and doing it in June after the wait list isn't enough time? It goes on and on, but no matter how you look at it, the cheater is disrespecting the sport, his fellow competitors and himself and not informing the match staff when you're aware of clear cheating is simply aiding and abetting that disrespect.

The only people that should be bothered by someone alerting match staff to a cheater are other cheaters. Who really gives a damn what their opinion is? Done properly, they'll never know who alerted the staff so it really won't be a problem for anybody but the offender. R,

[lugnut]

Ignoring it is condoning it.

I disagree with this. No one is saying not to "mention" this to the shooter or his peers. We are saying it's not our job to question or 2nd guess the ROs. Think about this for a minute. What if an RO doesn't notice the shooter's gear is in the wrong position? Should the spectator tell the RO before the LAMR? What if the shooter didn't start in the correct position? What if they were creeping and the RO didn't notice it... or if their hands were practically cupping the grips and in more of a sprinters start position? I don't think it's that the spectators don't want to help... it's just not their place to 2nd guess the RO IMO. I guess dropping a subtle hint to the RO after isn't a bad idea but the damage would have been done- so do you approach the RO of the next stage and tell them to watch for something? I'm not going to do that.

Another thing... at some point ROs will learn these things from other ROs and WILL catch it at some point... word travels fast when this crap happens. I've seen this first hand.

[Jake Di Vita]

Bart, I really think you just don't understand what I'm saying.

The reason for my actions literally has nothing to do with what the cheater thinks. Nor does it have anything to do with fairness and equality.

Think what you want about me. I'm telling you I don't condone cheating, you're telling me I do repeatedly. I really don't know how else to explain it to you.

I'm sure I'll see you at a match this year, you can feel free to bring it up then.

[kgunz11]

Ignoring it is condoning it.

I disagree with this. No one is saying not to "mention" this to the shooter or his peers. We are saying it's not our job to question or 2nd guess the ROs. Think about this for a minute. What if an RO doesn't notice the shooter's gear is in the wrong position? Should the spectator tell the RO before the LAMR? What if the shooter didn't start in the correct position? What if they were creeping and the RO didn't notice it... or if their hands were practically cupping the grips and in more of a sprinters start position? I don't think it's that the spectators don't want to help... it's just not their place to 2nd guess the RO IMO. I guess dropping a subtle hint to the RO after isn't a bad idea but the damage would have been done- so do you approach the RO of the next stage and tell them to watch for something? I'm not going to do that.

Another thing... at some point ROs will learn these things from other ROs and WILL catch it at some point... word travels fast when this crap happens. I've seen this first hand.

How is an RO going to learn if he is not taught? He can't be taught if the teachers remain silent.

[G-ManBart]

Ignoring it is condoning it.

I disagree with this. No one is saying not to "mention" this to the shooter or his peers. We are saying it's not our job to question or 2nd guess the ROs. Think about this for a minute. What if an RO doesn't notice the shooter's gear is in the wrong position? Should the spectator tell the RO before the LAMR? What if the shooter didn't start in the correct position? What if they were creeping and the RO didn't notice it... or if their hands were practically cupping the grips and in more of a sprinters start position? I don't think it's that the spectators don't want to help... it's just not their place to 2nd guess the RO IMO. I guess dropping a subtle hint to the RO after isn't a bad idea but the damage would have been done- so do you approach the RO of the next stage and tell them to watch for something? I'm not going to do that.

Another thing... at some point ROs will learn these things from other ROs and WILL catch it at some point... word travels fast when this crap happens. I've seen this first hand.

I didn't say to second guess an RO and claim they should penalize a shooter after their run. I said when you see someone cheating, and you know they're cheating, tell the match staff so they can watch for, and stop it.

[G-ManBart]

Bart, I really think you just don't understand what I'm saying.

The reason for my actions literally has nothing to do with what the cheater thinks. Nor does it have anything to do with fairness and equality.

Think what you want about me. I'm telling you I don't condone cheating, you're telling me I do repeatedly. I really don't know how else to explain it to you.

I'm sure I'll see you at a match this year, you can feel free to bring it up then.

I only added the thing about what the cheater thinks at the end. I don't care why, if you see cheating, you know it's cheating, and you do nothing, you're part of the problem. End of story. R,

Edit to add: maybe not the end of the story, because I also think it's insulting the sport, yourself, and the other competitors.

Edited April 28, 2010 by G-ManBart

[BillD]

I thought this might be unpopular. I honestly wasn't sure what to do. I didn't do anything, like some here said and, as another shooter said on my squad, "If the RO didn't catch it, it didn't happen."

[Jake Di Vita]

Tell you what Bart, if you're going to get nasty and say I'm insulting the sport, myself and my other competitors...Why don't you go back through my posts in this thread and find where I said I would ignore (your words) cheating if I saw it.

[kgunz11]

Guys let's don't get bent about this, let's just agree to disagree on how it should be handled.

Chris, while I agree with what you're saying, you're now the emotional poster. We should all go dry fire for an hour.

Edited April 28, 2010 by kgunz11

[Flexmoney]

I think we've beat this one around enough.

Closed.