Production Division Rules

[Vince Pinto]

All of you people who have posted that it isn't manly to cock the gun... well hell good for you.  But how many of you who have that belief shoot a Glock?

I shoot a Glock in Production Division because I've been shooting a Glock exclusively for the previous umpteen years in IPSC Standard Division which is overwhelmingly dominated by single-action-only guns, and I've done so without once bitching, moaning or crying for Momma. I made my gun choice and I didn't ask or expect anybody to change the rules to accommodate that choice.

However when Production Division was created and Glocks were approved, it was a natural progression for me (and for all the other non-SAO gun shooters) to embrace the new division, but I still shoot the same Glock 21 which only holds 13+1 rounds of 45ACP, even though there's no Major scoring in Production Division, and despite the fact that I could get an extra 30% magazine capacity by using my G17.

So, GordonB, I think I'm entitled to "grab my crotch and grunt like the Tool Man" and consider those who choose to shoot a DA/SA gun in Production Division and then cry to Momma because of the double action first shot requirement to be wussies.

And I tell 'em to their face to boot.

[GordonB]

Wonderful, since I shoot a Glock I guess I am not one of the "wussies."

I guess IPSC is too much of a mansport to let 1) women/men with small hands, who happen to have a Beretta, allow them to cock the gun for the first shot or 2) allow tactabillies to practice a technique taught by many schools. I'm glad USPSA and Amidon is more open-minded.

And I didn't tell it to your face since how the hell should I know what guns you shoot?

So... Darth that message was directed at you and all the other people on this thread who shoot a Glock and are complaining about the thumb cocking ruling.

... and O yeah, if you shoot full-power loads out of your 21 that duplicate defensive rounds (i.e. 200+ power factor) then you go have my blessing to grab your crotch and say how you are one bad mo-fo.

[Ron Ankeny]

deleted...I should have stayed out of this

[AFDavis11]

It's unfortunate that the XD is not allowed since it's trigger pull is identical to the Glock, it would be a very competitive gun in the Division. I can see why people don't want it in. It really isn't fair to allow Glocks with a 6 lbs trigger pull in Production either with all the 12 lbs double action guns in the Division. Then you allow them to cock the gun and they have a trigger pull of around 2-3 lbs, again we have a problem. Maybe if we just make the trigger pull requirement 10 lbs we could just even the playing field a little more. Eliminate the Glock all together. Maybe Glocks and XDs, both with advanced technology trigger systems should compete against each other exclusively. I'm under the impression the Production trigger pull requirement seems to match coincidentally with the trigger pull of a Glock, how did that happen exactly? What is it, 5.5 lbs and the Glock is 6 lbs? Anyone know the data on that? I'm just curious. Seems every Production double action on the planet is greater than 10 lbs and out of left field the pull weight of the Division becomes a 1/2 pound under a Glock???? Well if I need to go buy a Glock I will, I want to be competitive, I suppose. I hope no one gets the idea that it is a better gun just because the rules are written in its favor. I would hate to actually HAVE to carry a Glock. But if you let me cock the gun on the draw, well I'm just not sure what gun to buy. Ok just kidding I don't think thats practical. Unfortunately I think the rules will always have to favor one gun over another, but since we have a SA Division and a double action Division, how hard would it be to have a third Division. Say, partial double action, safe action, or technology assisted action Division.

[Merlin Orr]

Para LDA!

[GordonB]

As a guy who has shot more rounds double action than single action, I just can't relate to any of this. Frankly, I would think anyone who can't shoot the first round double action needs to be shooting a different gun.

To me it's about freestyle and freedom.

Can you honestly tell me that it is for the good of the sport to restrict people from cocking the gun?

Production is RULED by Glock. Just look at the USPSA top 16 in the last Production Nationals. The vast majority of those shooters were using Glock. And I daresay that the people who weren't were professional shooters who were using X brand because of sponsorships.

My take is that Production was created to allow the average gun owning schmo (without a 1911) to be competitive in a division. The way it has shaped up is that Production has become almost one-gun/brand division (i.e. Glock). The ruling has potentially allowed the non-Glock guns to be competitive. What's wrong with that?

[rmills]

The ruling has potentially allowed the non-Glock guns to be competitive.  What's wrong with that?

Unbelievable! Someone stating that a Glock has an un-fair, competitive advantage! Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus!

Production Division was created for DA 1st shot pistols, period. If you want to start out with a single action shot, there's Limited and Limited 10 Divisions (ooppps! that's now incorrect, we now have the DA-Cocked Classification for shooters who can't make the long shot DA).

[Turtle]

Honestly, this rule will have no effect on the game. As long as no one is allowed to start cocked and locked, I seriously doubt that any one will gain an advantage, remember guys....it's about the <I>shooting</i>.

Regards,

Todd

[rmills]

Para LDA!

There's a reason we see few if any Para LDA's in Production Division, it's called "way too much trigger reset travel". Just looking at statistics of the guns used at the IDPA Nationals or the USPSA Factory Gun Nationals will verify this.

[GordonB]

Unbelievable! Someone stating that a Glock has an un-fair, competitive advantage! Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus!

The Glock Safe Action is barely a DA (the trigger probably only cocks the stricker 1-2 mm).

But who said it was "unfair?" I guess I've been cheating for the last two years since I have been shooting a Glock in Production.

Production Division was created for DA 1st shot pistols, period. If you want to start out with a single action shot, there's Limited and Limited 10 Divisions (ooppps! that's now incorrect, we now have the DA-Cocked Classification for shooters who can't make the long shot DA).

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, here you are belittling the shooters who "can't make the long shot DA." And yet you shoot a Glock. A gun that BARELY classifies as a DA. Go shoot a Beretta or a Sig without a trigger job and then maybe you can make fun of them.

[GordonB]

Honestly, this rule will have no effect on the game. As long as no one is allowed to start cocked and locked, I seriously doubt that any one will gain an advantage, remember guys....it's about the <I>shooting</i>.

Regards,

Todd

Words 'o wisdom.

[Turtle]

[spooky voice like from "Field of dreams" ON]

........it's about the shooting.

[spooky voice like from "Field of dreams" OFF]

[Turtle]

No matter what equipment we choose to compete with, we all still have our own crosses to bear. I wish my ONLY disadvantage was that "a Glock is tougher to reload than brandX" and if my only advantage over the competition was "I can thumb cock my pistol before the first shot " then It's not looking too good for me.

Hopefully this whole changing of the rules thing will settle in soon and we can all get down to business. Now I've got to find myself a new holster. Because, I must shamefully admit, the only reason I shot as well as I did last year (however good that was?) was because of my Ky Tac holster. I'm glad it's going to be illegal soon, now I'll be able to sleep at night.

I'd like to also take this time to wish you all a happy new shooting year.

Regards,

Todd

[Ron Ankeny]

deleted to keep this a happy place

[Vince Pinto]

Production is RULED by Glock.  Just look at the USPSA top 16 in the last Production Nationals.  The vast majority of those shooters were using Glock.  And I daresay that the people who weren't were professional shooters who were using X brand because of sponsorships.

Ahhh. Once again we see sweeping statements about the dominance of one particular brand over another, but if you look beyond what is a very narrow field of view and set of circumstances, you see a whole different view. If you look at the bigger picture, Glock does not dominate Production Division globally. Sure, it's up there in the "Top 6", but it's up there with CZ, Beretta, SIG, H&K and the Para LDA - by all means ask people who actually attend European, South American & Australasian matches.

Have you considered that one important reason why Glocks (notably the G34) might dominate in the USA is because the USPSA changed the IPSC 5" maximum barrel length rule and 5lb minimum trigger pull requirement? It's a no brainer that many people would opt for the longer sight picture and standard "minus" connector offered by Glock on the G34 as standard equipment This is why, for example, David Sevigny shoots a G34 in the US but he used a G17 with a 5lb trigger pull to shoot and win Production Division at the last World Shoot.

I also submit that the reason why most of the Top 16 at the last US Nationals shot a Glock is because it's arguably the most reliable gun in the world and because there are many more holster options and it's been in the market for much longer and because it's a helluva lot cheaper than, say, an LDA. The Springfield XD has always been approved for USPSA Production Division - it's nothing new - so the choice of using an XD has always been an option but, judging from various comments in these and other forms, it's nowhere nearly as reliable as a Glock.

As Turtle and others say, people make their gun choices based on the rules as they exist. If you cannot fire a first shot DA, then you've made the wrong choice of gun and/or division, so don't come crying to Momma. And an argument about "women and children" is spurious - what about older people, those with poor eyesight, and people who qualify as Fat Bastards © and a myriad of other challenges?

We do our best to accommodate broad demographics with Categories, but if we start to change equipment rules to deal with all possibilities, then I want to be able to use my Glock 33 round magazines placed directly next to my belt buckle in Production Division so that they extend out further beyond my Fat Bastards © gut.

[GordonB]

Ahhh. Once again we see sweeping statements about the dominance of one particular brand over another, but if you look beyond what is a very narrow field of view and set of circumstances, you see a whole different view. If you look at the bigger picture, Glock does not dominate Production Division globally. Sure, it's up there in the "Top 6", but it's up there with CZ, Beretta, SIG, H&K and the Para LDA - by all means ask people who actually attend European, South American & Australasian matches.

The ruling is USPSA. European, South American & Australasian matches do not apply. But out of curiousity, can you point out a "Guns of the Top 16" type of list for those matches? I can't find one in the IPSC website.

For the 2003 US Nationals for Production, of the Top 16:

9/16 shot Glocks (including the winner Sevigny) = 56.25%

2/16 shot a Sig (Milionis) = 12.5%

1/16 shot a S&W = 6.25%

1/16 shot Springfield XD (Leatham) = 6.25%

1/16 shot a CZ (Hobdell) = 6.25%

1/16 shot a Beretta (Olhasso) = 6.25%

1/16 shot a Para Ordnance LDA = 6.25%

(From Front Sight, 11-12/2003)

I also submit that the reason why most of the Top 16 at the last US Nationals shot a Glock is because it's arguably the most reliable gun in the world and because there are many more holster options and it's been in the market for much longer and because it's a helluva lot cheaper than, say, an LDA. The Springfield XD has always been approved for USPSA Production Division - it's nothing new - so the choice of using an XD has always been an option but, judging from various comments in these and other forms, it's nowhere nearly as reliable as a Glock.

The Beretta 92 and the Sig (maybe to a lesser extent) is close or beats the Glock in the above criteria.

I believe the Beretta and Sig have been out a lot longer than the Glock.

I would daresay that the Sig and the 92 are as reliable as the Glock. (But I have to say that hands down, of the three, the Glock is the more durable.)

The Beretta and the Glock are very close in price.

Of the "good" holsters, the selections are pretty much the same. You can get a Bladetech, Ky-tac, etc. for any of these guns.

Again, of the criteria that you listed, these three guns are pretty close. But the Glock rules in USPSA. Why? I say it's the trigger. The trigger is the glaring difference between the Glock and the Beretta/Sig etc. And that's why it has a 50%+ representation in the Top 16. 43.25%(!!!) more than the second most popular brand.

[GordonB]

In all honesty, I can see no advantage at all to cocking the pistol for the first shot.

If there is no advantage to it, then what's the harm in letting them shoot that way? By allowing them to do so you are upholding one of the tenets of USPSA/IPSC --- freestyle.

The only reasons the people against it have presented here is that:

1. Your a p*ssy if you cock your gun. Or the "Real men shoot DA" argument. (Darth)

2. Change is bad. (rmills?)

3. There's no competitive advantage to it. (Ankemy and ??)

(I'm I missing anything?) I'm not swayed by any of those points. And apparently you guys aren't for any of the arguments for.

Anyway it's a done deal.

"Let's just shoot."

[Vince Pinto]

But out of curiousity, can you point out a "Guns of the Top 16" type of list for those matches? I can't find one in the IPSC website.

The information you request is not provided to IPSC, which is why it's not posted on the IPSC website (such stats are rarely compiled at matches outside of the USA).

For the 2003 US Nationals for Production, of the Top 16:

Once again you're drawing sweeping conclusions about the dominance of one particular brand over another, based on a very narrow demographic base and set of circumstances. There were 81 competitors registered in PD at that particular match, not just 16.

The guns used in Production Division (and indeed all other divisions), is far more than what the Top 16 use, some (many?) of whom are sponsored or paid to shoot a particular make/model gun. The real question is: "How many of the total field shot an X make/model of gun?" because that's where we'll have a better picture of what the vast majority of competitors who don't have a personal sponsorship incentive choose to shoot.

For example, at the last Hong Kong Nationals, 100% of the competitors in Revolver Standard Division shot a S&W Model 10. Pretty impressive numbers for S&W, don't you think? (Reality check: there were 5 guys in RS Division, they were all Police officers and they all shot their service revolvers & service ammunition).

Anyway, I agree it's a "done deal", we've all said our piece, we've gone to 5 interesting pages, so I think it's probably time to close this thread, but I'd like to give you or others a chance to have the last word.

[rmills]

Vince:

Leave the thread open a while longer. It's very interesting as to the comments and perceptions listed here. What is coming very apparent, is that unlike other shooting sports, USPSA is always willing to change the rules, which in turn dilutes a division from what it's original intent was.

This thread has generated much more debate and comment than I would have thought when I started it. In closing, I would say that when a division is created and equipent rules are written around a "type" of gun (in this case DA), the rules should always reflect the original, underlying, intent. Yes, I have no problem with smoothing out triggers, new grips, barrel changes, sight changes, etc., but other than that, the intent of the division should remain the same. If you want to shoot single action, there's Limited and Limited 10. As for me and my friends, we'll be shooting in SSP and ESP.

Take care......................

[Vince Pinto]

If there is no advantage to it, then what's the harm in letting them shoot that way?

I forgot to address this comment in my earlier post.

Boy, you're good, but no kewpie doll. The real question is: "If there's no advantage, why do people want the option of hammer-cocking?". Answer: there is indeed an advantage in being allowed to cock the hammer of a SA/DA pistol after the start signal, and I spent a few hours at the range today with my Beretta 92FS testing my theory.

It only took me 200 rounds to get fairly proficient at drawing my 92FS and smoothly cocking the hammer on the way to getting my gun up to eye-level for a nice, crisp single-action first shot - I basically used the Israeli "draw-push-rack" technique, but I modified it and did a "draw-push-cock" action.

While I'm certainly no threat to Eric Grauffel or Rob Leatham, I was getting an Alpha with my first shot on a target at 20m in under 1.5 seconds with a gun I've hardly touched in the last 5 years.

In fact, I was so suprised how easy it was, I'm seriously considering shooting my next match in PD with the Beretta, but I'll be trying another few hundred rounds on the weekend before I decide. However don't take my word for it. If you're a Glock shooter, borrow a DA/SA gun and see for yourself. YMMV.

And while you're quite correct in stating that the change is a USPSA-only affair, my initial impression is that allowing hammer-cocking after the start signal changes the whole dynamic of Production Division.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you get someone who is truly proficient with a DA pull (has practiced with it a LOT) then there is really no advantage to being able to cock it before the first shot. The only place that would be an advantage is at lower classifications.

[AFDavis11]

Yes, I think it will be interesting to see how the situation changes. Is this rule effective immediately? I think I would hammer cock a Ruger if I had one and not a Beretta, wonder what others will do. So what is the point now of having a double action trigger pull of a certain weight if all your shots are going to be single action? Is that rule changing any? Vince are you racking the whole slide? I'm not familiar with Israeli IPSC. :-)

[Jake Di Vita]

I watched a video one time made by an Israeli...what he did was draw, bring the gun to the center of his chest where his weak hand gripped the slide, extended the gun while keeping the weak hand still this racking the slide, and his weak hand then followed up onto the gun.

[Ron Ankeny]

deleted...I am just an emotional wreck

[Vince Pinto]

AFD,

Jake describes the Israeli draw nicely. It's not a tactic used by IPSC Israel - it's used by some Israeli defense forces who carry their guns with an empty chamber. My "modification" was to only thumb cock the hammer rather than hand racking the slide because I had a round chambered, but I might try the full Israeli draw on the weekend.

The trouble is you're supposed to scream "Kawabunga" at the same time, and I might scare the guy in the next booth