BayouSlide
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Posts posted by BayouSlide
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But I do think that a rule book should be written so that competitors don't need to hire a lawyer to understand it
I *know* I'm going to regret this, but... *I* thought the rule was written pretty clearly. The part that has been at the center of the current discussion says:
Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)
•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy,reliability and function
•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods).
It seems pretty clear to *me*. And more to the point, it takes some... "creative reading" to believe that those things add up to "I can drill holes, add screws, redesign fire-control components, file things into new shapes, swap in completely different parts that aren't listed and anything else I want as long as you can't see it from the outside."
I don't know how much more clearly we could have said "if it isn't exactly, specifically, explicitly on this list in plain language, you can't do it to your gun."
Any hints?
Perhaps the new rules are that clear. If so, then the real problem—for at least the majority of the Production shooters posting here—would appear to be considerable dissatisfaction from the rank and file with the new rules/interpretation/direction for OUR division.
There appears to be a real divergence in what we believe the Production division should be versus what the BOD believes it should be. As such, perhaps the BOD would seriously consider these alternative points of view in any future discussions/changes/clarifications of the rules.
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I've seen racing refered to a few times in this thread. Let's borrow one of their rules. Top 3 finishers get the guns torn down and inspected for illegal mods. Illegal mods=DQ
Dang, guess I'm safe as long as the the M, A and B players show up
But Scooter, I'm more in favor of a claiming rule, which I remember from motorcycle roadracing's Suzuki Cup production races (which by the way, allowed limited mods). How about you get to claim the winner's gun for, say, $650? Ought to keep people from shooting those expensive guns or investing too much in their mods. Dave Sevigny could make some money on that deal every match. Heck, some guys in our local clubs would make money on stock Glocks...if you could replace 'em considering the back order situation.
I thought I was getting into USPSA to relieve stress...ever since the notion last year to consider minimum trigger pulls and eliminate the Blade Tech DOH, I keep hanging around these threads that make my head and stomach hurt. Maybe I should just lighten up and shoot Limited...I'm classified C there, too.
For the record, the clubs where Scooter, Double Pedro and I shoot, the turnout is usually, in order of competitors, Limited, Production, then a couple of Open or Revolver shooters.
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I thought it was interesting that in the "original" set of rules, trigger work was expressely permitted (Thanks Nik). If it was good then, why is it bad now?
I bought a new Mustang in 2008. Often I start thinking about how to make it "better". But then I come back to my senses and realize that it isn't broke and doesn't need fixing.
From my prespective, I think the same analogy applies to Production Division. If we start twisting the wrenches under the hood of this division, I am afraid that all we are going to do is hurt the end product.
Gee, Gary, there you go again...I was going to toss in one more post on this topic, but you covered all my points for me
Seems like the previous rules were closer to the mark than the 2008 variant: another case of fixing something that wasn't broke...until it was broke?
I realize the postings on BENOS are in no way a scientific sampling, but it's entirely reasonable to assume that when this many people are unhappy with new rules, there may be something wrong with the new rules, especially for a membership-driven organization like USPSA.
I, like many other Production shooters, are no-doubt encouraged that someone may be listening and taking our concerns into consideration.
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It wasn't meant to be an equipment race, from the beginning USPSA has made that clear, and they still do, for some of us anyway.
I've never bought into this whole idea of avoiding the impending doom of an "equipment race" in Production. To me, it's reasonable to add $250 to a $500 pistol to get an extremely competitive, top-drawer Production gun. If you can afford ammo, that's affordable to nearly any shooter. If you don't want to add the parts, you're still competitive...ask Dave Sevigny.
Equipment race, to me, begins in Limited and Open, where guns run $1,500 and up AND UP and a tuned mag can set somebody back $125.
With the rules, as proposed, you would maintain a lower-entry-cost class where everyone is...and would be...remarkable competitive with talent, not a trigger, the difference between top and mid-pack. And the box-stock folks would still play on relatively equal footing. The Vanek trigger in my G34 hasn't turned me into a GM from a lowly C shooter. Just makes it more enjoyable to shoot.
Give people who want to do a little tuning the opportunity to play.
My .$03
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Guys/Gals I think you know where I stand on this issue. With that said though, Bruce has asked a valid question. If anyone can write a rule that covers what he has outlined, is clear, definitive, and has no wiggle room in it, I believe it will be eagerly accepted.
OK, I'll take a stab at it.
• Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in Production Division.*
• Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.*
• Handgun may not be in single action mode at start signal.*
• No externally visible modifications except sights and grip tape or sleeves, unless the replacement parts are OEM and available on similar models from that manufacturer.
• All safeties must remain functional.
• Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not
allowed.*
*Pulled verbatim from the pre-2008 rulebook.
Benefits include simplicity, room for tuning improvements to trigger or action, and no need to go beyond a visual inspection to ensure compliance.
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Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
That was the first thing that came to my mind regarding this rule. XDs and CZs will soon be the only guns to shoot if you can't replace your disconnector or trigger housing with over-travel stop on Glocks. Not only did you make guns that were legal no longer legal, you also gave advatage to "Custom Shop" guns.
Go back to do whatever you want as long as it is not externally visible interpretation.
I big nod from the "amen corner" on that, Homie.
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Hard to describe the joy I feel that I can't change to an aftermarket $15 connector in a Production Glock without being pushed into Limited...let alone a $.02 set screw in the trigger housing. Guess I should start saving for a $1,500+ pistol, running tuned mags that cost $100+ a piece. Oops, forgot a couple bills for the speed holster setup...now where's that credit card?
From my lowly vantage point here in the trenches, it's truly hard to see how the powers that be are for looking out for the interests of the Production class...thinking this is SURE to make it more popular. Sure, alright, sure to make Limited more popular
What's that you say...if you don't like the rules, don't shoot Production? I already made that decision, unfortunately it was based on the Production rules previous to 2008 when I got my start.
Vox clamantis in deserto: Why the overweeming need to fix something that wasn't broke in the first place?.
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For the record, I have always and still support the ability to do internal trigger work and am against any form of trigger weighing.
Keep up the good work, Gary...need a few more like you on the BOD
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Titegroup will be hard to beat.
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Anyone have any experience with the(rx) flip up glass(Exception) are the ones I been thinking about getting?
That is what I ended up with after trying some other brands that put the RX lenses on a clip on insert that always seemed too close to my face, picking up sweat and oil from my eyebrows.
The Exception were PERFECT. Can't recommend 'em highly enough. Added advantage is that, with extra clips, you can quickly switch between various Rudy lenses. I use the 3FX racing red 85 percent of the time, with the balance split between photochromic grey and clear.
BTW, the prescription I used has a different position for the right bifocal, allowing me to finally see the front sights clearly on a pistol.
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After wondering whether it was a crutch, I tried mine blacked out. Now I'm with the Pharoah on this one...it definitely brings my older eye to the front sight. Now I just have to keep working on not jumping the gun on solid sight alignment. Shooting at first sight of the FO is probably like break the shot with regular sights as soon as you see brown...not a way to nail down a lot of As.
The FO has value so I don't want to toss the baby with the bath water. But it's no substitute for visual patience.
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Or...you can just take your dog to a professional groomer
or your vet.My blue heeler mix (entered our lives as a stray a year ago) apparently has nails that are hard to cut without causing her pain and bleeding. But when they're not trimmed, she causes ME pain and bleeding when we play. A groomer down the street now takes care of it very competently for us for $10 every couple of months...worth the small investment. I just can't stand hurting my dog so I'm relieved not to have to do it any more.
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Edited to add a pix of my pup, taken on the trail this year in Colorado.
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Are we starting to see a pattern/s here?
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The go / no-go gauges are very small, as you would imagine. I'd be happy to loan them to you to check if you need.
Thanks, warpspeed. That's really nice of you. I just may take you up on your offer. At this point, I'm thinking about just buying a complete spare BCG and checking the spare bolt for clearance in both my rifles.
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Thanks, warpspeed.
Or, I guess a separate/related question would be the benefit of having at least a spare bolt that was GTG after checking it in both rifles, since the carrier is more interchangeable without issues.
I'm starting to think along these lines as I have a Bushmaster carbine that is getting up near 5K rounds, nearly all XM-193, on it's original bolt.
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I seem to remember some conflicting info from what I've read in the past regarding new parts versus used parts versus the need to check with go/no gauges, etc.
I'm wondering if I could safely switch parts from one rifle to another, if need be, in case of breakage during a match. Yeh, I know, just use the other rifle, but each are set up with different optics/barrels/etc. for different types of matches
Help a brother out with the straight scoop on this issue...you guys I trust
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All good tips...appreciate the ideas, guys
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This post originally was going to take a different tack, soliciting drills to help overcome a particular problem I'm facing as a lowly C...literally and figuratively...shooter
.But I thought it would be much more interesting...and valuable...to hear forum members describe THE ONE drill they feel was most significant to their improvement as a shooter, and why.
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With some time to kill over the holidays I've spent time on a number of forums, some new to new, some that I hadn't visited in a while. Always hope to learn something, or maybe post something that might help someone else in the way that others have helped me.
I can't help but cringe at the tone of way too many postings on "the other" forums...if this is how some people define a user community, I'd be scared the visit the real-life community it was based on.
Kudos to our host, the BENOS community and it's moderators for apparently achieving a rare safe harbor from the antagonism, ignorance, baiting and bashing that seem the sum and substance of 'Net life for many people.
I'm happy to park my avatar here anytime.
Happy New Year to all
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The only thing I can add to the discussion is an option on a tumbler. I have a Thumler Ultra-Vibe 18 (bowl, not roller) tumbler which is super-heavy duty and handles around 1K 9mm cases at a time. It is the only brand I would consider other than the Dillon.
I also like the media separator I have from Cabella's (a private label from another maker) only because it has an enclosed cover which keeps the mess and dust down.
I use Dillon dies in my 550B with the exception of the Lee FCD in the final station.
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I always seem to get mine later, too...but I just assumed that was because they sent it out to the GM, A and B-classified shooters first
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of course that stage may be 110 rds
Dang, now that's just cruel
Thanks, Larry...I think I'll probably go with the dot as well. Appreciate the guidance.
Looks like you have the sort of range we most commonly have around here...the rifle portion of the sheriff's range where I practice is limited to 125 yds.
Merry Christmas to you and yours
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We will have movers in two stages and the long shot(s) this year are around 150 to 175. Several stages have swinger of bobber targets and one will use the pick up truck as a prop to shoot from the bed. More to come.
Guys, I won't hold you to it
but help a TSCC newbie from out-of-town out, would ya? Will the short range COFs dominate again this year? I need to decide which rifle (Holosight) or scoped would be best for the match and prepare accordingly. If I shot Open, naturally, it wouldn't be a concern 
. For me, based on last year's stages, I would go with the dot, but getting out to 150 or so, my aging eyes need a some help. I'd take my chances with the dot, though, if there were only a few rounds out beyond 100.My trip to the match is a birthday present to myself...you don't want to ruin my birthday, do ya
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or your vet.
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but help a TSCC newbie from out-of-town out, would ya? Will the short range COFs dominate again this year? I need to decide which rifle (Holosight) or scoped would be best for the match and prepare accordingly. If I shot Open, naturally, it wouldn't be a concern 
. For me, based on last year's stages, I would go with the dot, but getting out to 150 or so, my aging eyes need a some help. I'd take my chances with the dot, though, if there were only a few rounds out beyond 100.
Illegal Production Trigger Mods
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
The first time I ever heard griping at local matches was when the new rules for 2008 were under discussion and the legality of the Blade Tech DOH and instituting minimum trigger pull weights were potential issues. And I'll admit, I was one of the gripers. Lot of the guys weren't even aware of the discussion at first, but became concerned because they "were" legal but might not be next year.
I was always under the impression (perhaps misguided) that the type of Glock trigger mods in the Vanek Production trigger were legal under the 2004 rules. Maybe I was wrong...it appears that I AM for sure under the 2008 rules. Sure that bothers me, but so goes it. If that's the rules, either back to stock or shoot Limited. Or know you're cheating, even if you disagree with the rules. Don't like that last option.
I, for one, would be perfectly happy to have the rules state that ANYTHING internal (i.e. no visible modifications and all safeties intact) is fair game. Seems simple to me, simple to enforce. But I'm a simple sorta guy
All this worry about an "equipment race" is rather bogus, and I'm a guy who wants to shoot as cheaply as possible or I'd trade in my Glock and go shoot Limited. If I could have 3X the fun, I'd spend 3X the amount on a gun...but I long ago decided that I couldn't have 3X the fun so a Production shooter is what I am.
My buddy BlackSabbath is right...we'd all rather shoot than gripe about the rules
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