Jeff226
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Posts posted by Jeff226
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As long as we try to pretend major and minor in the same division adds value, we will continue to have these problems.
On 6/25/2021 at 9:45 AM, waktasz said:No one shoots single stack at all so the whole premise is irrelevant.
Probably best answer ^^
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14 hours ago, Jeff226 said:
SS is the only division left where DVC sort of works. Sometimes you get screwed choosing major. If we could finally toss DVC that problem could be solved also.
2 hours ago, motosapiens said:I used to think that. Now I think that the more skilled you are, the more you should just shoot major and not worry about it. It's not a coincidence that the first minor shooter was 19th place at nationals, in match that was generally regarded to be pretty unfriendly to 8-round guns.
I am willing to agree we are saying about the same thing.
2 hours ago, motosapiens said:at local matches I compete against everyone, in every division.
Then it is good they have a combine all option for you.
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On 6/19/2021 at 5:13 PM, Fishbreath said:
NROI has said that it's wrong (not against the rules, but undesirable) to handicap PCCs by requiring more difficult starts for rifle shooters. In the same way, it seems wrong to me to handicap locap divisions by building stages that have positions where anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be shooting 11+ rounds.
I shoot pistols so I don't compete against PCCs and am not concerned about how PCCs have to start as long as it is safe.
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4 hours ago, motosapiens said:
I like SS because 1911's are the gun the Lord intended us to shoot. Don't really care about the 'challenge'.
I think your point is valid at major matches, where there is usually heat in all divisions, but in local matches there might only be 1-2 good shooters in any particular division. In such situations, I'm accustomed to looking at overall scores to get an idea of how I shot and fuel the post-match bench-racing. Most of us longtime shooters have a pretty good idea of how much of an advantage different divisions have on a typical stage, but it upsets this calculation when a stage is *particularly* unfriendly to a certain division, or overly friendly to a certain division.
I agree level 1 matches should be as friendly to everyone as possible (within reasonable limits) as this is where we theoretically gain/attract/maintain participation. I can also see a SS guy comparing results against production. I just don't think jumping through hoops to give revolver shooters some false notion they are competitive against PROD/SS/L10 is in the top 100 problems USPSA has. SS is the only division left where DVC sort of works. Sometimes you get screwed choosing major. If we could finally toss DVC that problem could be solved also.
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I'd rather have less stages than less rounds per stage but I can't see rushing through abbreviated matches to add a second wave doubling revenue. Quite the opposite. In addition to the people put off by low round counts, who is going to want to shoot in an afternoon wave in the summer especially in the south?
There is no way I would be entering many matches full of 20 rd stages. Most people I know feel the same way...part of the reason we don't do more IDPA. I am already questioning the value of standing around for 30 minutes to an hour per stage to shoot 28-32 rounds.
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13 hours ago, Fishbreath said:
It doesn't, though. It's easy to design stages that follow the letter of the rule but have obvious positions where you'd want to shoot more than eight rounds.
Here's one:
You have eight-round arrays out the two ports, and a target at the uprange end of the stage that is technically available from anywhere, but you know that anyone with more than 8 rounds in the gun is going to hit a reload running hard and take that target on the way in, while people in 8-round divisions are going to have to reload on the move, hit the target on the move, reload again, and finish the stage.
Who cares? Everybody in the division is shooting the same stage. You typed out the plan for an 8 round shooter so apparently even that stage caters to them as required by the rules. Most PCC and open shooters can shoot the stage without reloading at all. That doesn't affect people in revolver division.
If you "want" to shoot more rounds, then pick a division/gun that allows more rounds. I don't really "want" to shoot at swingers and crawl in tunnels but it is allowed in the rules. Maybe I "want" to shoot that whole stage without reloading in limited...oh well.
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23 hours ago, motosapiens said:
that's not really what the rule says. within what the rule *does* say, there are lots of ways to screw over and annoy lo-cap shooters. I personally work hard to avoid such situations in my stages, but that's because I shoot SS for 2-3 months every year so I think about it.
23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:That's not how that works. You can have 30 shots available from one position as long as they are also available from several other positions so that you're not required to take more than 8 shots from that position. I have shot a bunch of stages at level 2 and 3 matches that had me shooting a dozen rounds or more from one positions.
Yes, but you know what I meant, more than 8 scoring hits can not be required from a position...which means all divisions are "catered" to in course design that follows the rules. No division requires a capacity below 8.
"Pick the division you like and shoot in it". If a match favors limited and you are shooting single stack...so what? All of the other single stacks are shooting the same course. I thought everybody here wanted locap for the challenge/competition anyhow.
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On 6/13/2021 at 4:44 PM, BritinUSA said:
With three of the four main divisions utilizing hi-capacity guns, the match directors/stage designers are catering for the most popular divisions. If they had kept CO at 10 rounds then there would be almost an equal number of hi-cap/lo-cap shooters at most matches, so the stage designs would reflect that.
It’s the law of unintended consequences; They wrecked the balance that existed in the four main divisions.
That balance doesn't matter. With the 8 round maximum shots from a position, all matches cater to all allowed capacities.
The only thing keeping CO at 10 rounds would have accomplished is to make less people want to shoot it and/or more people continuing to push for it to be 140mm. If people overwhelmingly want hicap divisions (which they do) having one HiCap and 7 low cap isn't going to result in 16% hicap and 84% lowcap shooters...not even close.
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35 minutes ago, Brooke said:
Thank you.
Someone buys a gun and starts shooting a division. They decide they are at a disadvantage because they are not winning. I'll skip the obvious argument that they just are not very good.
Either change to a more appropriate division or buy a different gun. Seems both of those are easy decisions unless you have to crawl to a wife to buy another gun. That's a different problem.
It looks like some would rather change the rules to suit their own interests even though doing so would be unlikely to solve their issue of just not being a competitive shooter. To be fair this Jeff is not alone. Every day here somebody has a "better" idea.
I guess I don't understand why this whining is allowed to go on and on.
This is hilarious. page 4 of the thread I linked just before your post:
Brooke: ^^^ Needs to be done now!!
WHAT???? Were you crawling to your wife for a new gun back then? Having some problems being competitive? Not very good? LOL, the hypocrisy!! Yes, Jeff is not alone apparently.
Page 3 - looks like page 4 wasn't an accident:
Dewey: Still a good/relevant post!!
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1 hour ago, PatJones said:
Jeff, lots of whining about minor not being "competitive". Are you competitive? None of this matters until the shooter is capable of winning a match.
Whining? I am just stating my opinion and responding to the haters. Here is one of many threads where Admins, Mods, and most of the people in this thread are stating the same opinion. Most of these opinions are based on information that appears to be factual to some degree. There are other threads where the numbers are looked at in detail. Since so many people share the same opinion and the facts strongly support it, I think it would be beneficial to fix it. Do you disagree with the opinions?
I think good divisions matter to everybody.
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2 minutes ago, Balakay said:
Because sometimes the uninformed to get shafted. You’ve been chirping about the same issue since threads dating back to 2019. Plenty of time to buy a 40.
I can’t decide if you’re perpetuating this because you enjoy the banter or just can’t get over the hump to win some B-class wood at a section match.Since you are reading back you can probably find where I said I own/shoot .40s. You can probably also read again why I am perpetuating it...it shouldn't be confusing.
Have you been chirping against rule changes for 2-3 years? Is it working?
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10 minutes ago, RJH said:
Science says minor wins in revolver and a former champ shooting major can only manage 10th or so. So since the disparity is obviously greater there i suggest you focus on that division. Or maybe open as no one gets in the top 20 shooting minor and there is not even a capacity advantage to minor in open.
So tell the truth, did you buy a 2011 in 9mm and now want the rules changed to suit you?
I suggest I can focus on the division I choose to focus on. You can take up the crusade for revolver. This thread was started about limited minor.
I don't own any 2011s but why should someone that owns one be shafted on scoring because they picked 9mm over .40?
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9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
don't be a science-denier. we have empirical evidence that you can place in the top 4 at nationals shooting limited minor. OTOH, no one has ever placed in the top 10 shooting production 40 as far as my research can determine. No one has ever placed in the top 10 shooting pcc in any caliber but 9. Therefore it is clear that limited minor is more competitive than production 40, or pcc 40.
fwiw, It's not competitive to be a bad shooter and not practice either, yet many people do exactly that, and they try to get the rules changed to make up for their poor choices.....
The science says minor wins against minor in prod and pcc but it doesn't win against major in limited.
Scoring is based on PF, not diameter. Your theory would not pass peer review.
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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:
It's more competitive than you think, it's just that no one good chooses to do it unless they are shooting their production gun in a match where production isn't offered. The reason they don't do it is because there are 4 other divisions where 9mm minor is favored by the rules, plus SS where 9mm minor is a viable option that has been used to win many Area matches.
Based on 2020 race gun nationals, minor was good enough for 4th in limited, and that guy would probably have won shooting major. So shooting minor costs you 3 places. Why not just give all minor shooters the option to claim they placed 3 places higher than their actual placing, and call it good? If you get 10th at a section match, you can say you got 7th. That should make everyone happy.
It's funny how the story always goes that it is a bad idea to shoot minor in Limited, and don't buy a minor pistol for limited, and you'll be handicapping yourself if you shoot minor UNTIL somebody suggests splitting the two and then all of a sudden minor is competitive if this and that and whatever excuse.
If it is good for 3 places at nationals and he would have won shooting major then it isn't competitive. If you can only win with minor at area matches then it isn't competitive.
9mm is not favored by the rules at all. It is just cheaper...and only slightly in some cases if reloading.
Any 38 caliber revolver would be just as competitive as a 9mm revolver as long as it has 8rd capacity and moon clips/speed loaders.
Any pistol caliber carbine can be loaded to minor and used in PCC - there is no limit on capacity or length
You can load any gun on the production list in calibers other than 9mm to minor pf. If that isn't true for all guns then we have limited 10 as another option...where 9mm is not favored.
You can load 40 to minor and shoot carry optics.
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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
looking at the results for the last major I shot, there were 4 lim minor shooters out of 32 overall, including 2 C's and 2 A's. Seems like about the same level of demand as for 45 limited.
Yeah, why would you go to a major match and shoot minor pf in Limited...it isn't competitive unless you get lucky with the stages. That is the whole point of the thread.
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33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
meh. show me the demand for lim minor from serious competitors who aren't noobs getting their feet wet.
Ask the people at USPSA HQ...you don't even have to take my word for it.
Or Shred, page 1
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1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:
Just a thought, if minor wasn't a thing going sub major means no score. Doesn't really seem like a change that's needed.
Obviously we don't need yet another division with out any talk of how or when to get rid of divisions that aren't working.
Having a floor is fine, minor pf is pretty close to off the shelf factory ammo, and it is consistent with IDPA and 3 gun.
The computer can handle 100 more divisions, adding one and letting the rest die naturally won't break the system.
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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
and we need a new division for revolver major. I have a 6-shot revolver and I'm not competitive in revo against the 8-shot guns. This makes me cry and gave me PTSD. I am organizing a march to bring attention to the years of the man holding me down.
Show me the overwhelming demand for revolver major...or even participation numbers that indicate it is popular...and I will consider it. .45 acp anything for that matter.
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2 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:
They aren't, actually, because there's no appendix for 'limited minor' recognized separately from 'limited', if we're going to be unduly literal about it.
And you are going to base your opposition to what would be the largest division in USPSA on the unduly literal fact that the book lacks one sentence saying they are separate divisions? That is the great instability?
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dup
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Just now, Fishbreath said:
I don't shoot Limited, so it doesn't pad my results either way, but I do care about stable, consistent rules. Fiddling with the rulebook yet again violates that principle, and it sounds like you're proposing it to solve something (major being better than minor in Limited) that I don't think is even remotely in the top five problems in the USPSA rulebook. In fact, I don't think it's a problem at all. I shoot in Revolver, where minor is transparently better than major, and I don't think that's a problem either.
All of the rules for limited minor are already in the book.
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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
I said no such thing. I pointed out that LE agencies are hiring weaklings and sissies who can't qualify with 40 and that's what is driving some agencies to downsize.
I have voiced no opinion about people who choose to shoot minor in Limited division, although it is clear that the vast majority of them are noobs just figuring out the sport and competing with what they have in the meantime.
That is how you phrased it this time...we have years of other examples. Besides, you aren't the point...I was trying to give the the other guy a good example of what an insult is.
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1 minute ago, Fishbreath said:
Two or three pages ago, you insinuated that I only care about not making a new division because it pads my scores against newbies.
Also, to someone else talking about .40, you said,
So no, I don't buy your claim that you haven't insulted anybody.
Why else would you insist that minor stays in a division with a scoring problem making it not competitive? What other reason is there? It isn't bait, it isn't an insult...what is the motivation. You have yet to answer.
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Just now, Balakay said:
If you have shot 3 matches with a SAO Sig with a magwell with factory 9 and mags loaded to capacity and then wonder why you are at 30% in the overall, I don't look down upon you because of your performance per se, I look down upon you because you are trying to change a sport/hobby/event that you know nothing about
Limited minor already exists in every way except as its own division. There is a known scoring problem vs major. This topic isn't even related to some noob showing up with the wrong gear.
Why a Safety in Production?
in CZ
Posted
I am pretty sure that CZ doesn't put a decocker on non firing pin safety models for "safety" reasons. In theory if the hammer fails to stop at decock the gun still won't go off.
You can buy an SP-01 and cajunize it if you want a decocker gun.