Jeff226
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Posts posted by Jeff226
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3 minutes ago, twodownzero said:
Power is one of the principles of practical shooting. I don't carry a .40 on the street but I understand why it's rewarded in competition. I can carry whatever I want, too, and I never carry a .40 or any caliber that starts with a 4.
I agree it is a principle but it has been proven that .40 is rewarded too much. So all I am saying is the power factors for limited should be separate as I think correcting the formula would be an even more difficult task.
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7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
you falsely claimed that no one except serious limited shooters is interested in 40. I corrected your false statement and provided an example. There are many more.
Statistically, the general gun buying public cares not about .40. Yes, a few suckers buy one if they run across it cheap at Academy but very few people outside of USPSA limited shooters seek them out. Regardless, I didn't bring up agencies. What 300 +/- LEOs do with their old .40s has no bearing on the viability of Limited major. The fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold does.
9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:that's just bad math. I know many agencies have gone to guns that are easier for noobs to shoot to help with their 'diversity', and they use claims of 'effectiveness' to justify their dumbing down, but any meaningful measure of power is going to include velocity and bullet weight. 40 is simply a more powerful cartridge.
You can argue that you don't actually *need* all that power, especially if you want to recruit people who aren't interested in learning to shoot more powerful guns, but you can't be taken seriously if you try to argue that power difference doesn't exist.
I said not "not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way." That obviously means I know there is a difference, but it means nothing in their selection process. Current 9mm meets their penetration requirements while expanding and retaining mass. It also breaks guns less frequently, costs less, requires stocking of fewer calibers, and it is easier for everyone to shoot. Switching was a no brainer regardless of who they are running through the academy. HRT can choose whatever they want to carry, they chose Glock 17s. You call the FBI firearms unit and tell them they are doing it wrong and can't be taken seriously. I am sure they will care as much as I do.
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12 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:
"DVC" was Coopers formula for successful defensive shooting. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then how/why did it become a "foundation" of IPSC shooting and the basis of the power factor based scoring?
IPSC Motto
The Latin words Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) meaning accuracy, power, and speed are IPSC's motto and form the foundation for competition.
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Just now, Racinready300ex said:
How many agencies are running 38 super comp these days? How do open shooters manage? How many are running 38 short colt? How do revolver shooters manage?
Oh yeah they just go buy what they need to be competitive.
I didn't bring up the agencies. 300 people carrying .40s in some minor LEO outfit has no bearing in USPSA as far as I am concerned.
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4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:
I have 3 that says they're not.
If you had those then you would be aware of more people than just me that are advocates of limited minor.
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3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:
... no they aren't. LOL.
Yes they are. I have at least 2 emails from Foley that say that exact thing. Ask him yourself.
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7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
all 300 officers at my federal agency carry .40. At least one county sheriff in my area uses 40 (i pick up their once-fired brass). Most modern guns are offered in 40, and people buy them when they want more power than 9mm provides.
Fewer and fewer guns are being offered in .40. Your agency is a drop in the bucket and is most likely a money thing more than an elitism thing. The FBI still has .40 guns but only because the agents carrying them haven't retired out yet. The gun buying public cares even less about .40 than law enforcement...which statistically doesn't care much at all. Anybody that is paying attention knows that .40 is not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way, even less so when loaded down to 165 pf.
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Just now, Ssanders224 said:
This is the fallacy I alluded to earlier... that every pistol and cartridge combo deserves it's own comfy (competitive) place to compete in the sport.
Does your idea hold up for Open too? "I want to shoot a 9mm Minor 2011 with a frame mounted optic. Why should I be handicapped by Major scoring?!??!"
You are missing the point. DVC says minor and major should both be competitive, that is why there is a power factor formula to begin with. The fallacy is that DVC still matters.
Carry optics is gradually becoming open minor just like production is becoming limited minor. I am all for having power factors in separate divisions. So yes, I am all for you being able to shoot a 2011 in an open/optic minor division.
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1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:
You are the only person I've ever heard of suggesting we should have a limited minor division... so I can see how USPSA would not entertain such a concept.
There are always people living off the grid I suppose. I don't start a majority of the limited minor threads here so there is at least one other person keeping IMA45DV8 entertained.
The USPSA is entertaining the concept of making the whole thing minor PF except for open over some mutli-year transition. So there is apparently a flood of demand for limited minor among other things.
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1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:
Ok? And who care? Limited is the biggest division in USPSA (or at least was last year or so).
Why are we attempting to cater to people with minor guns? If one cannot be bothered to buy competitive equipment for a division then why does EVERYONE who chose to do this have to now suffer and adjust what they're running?Why attempt to cater to anybody with any gun? Why not only allow 2011s with comps, 9 major, and optic required? Screw everybody else with their choices! Better yet, lets make USPSA PCC only...why cater to handguns period??
A limited gun in minor is competitive equipment. Why do we insist those be stuck in a division with a permanent scoring disadvantage to .40 caliber...a cartridge nobody wants unless they are super mega serious about USPSA limited?
Nobody has to adjust anything. If they have limited major guns they keep shooting limited major. If they have a limited minor gun then they shoot in the separate limited minor division. It is so simple I can't figure out why it is so confusing.
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2 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:
You're talking in circles.
There ARE benefits. More capacity, less recoil, etc. Within the confines of the sport, whether or not those are beneficial enough for you to choose Minor over Major is 100% up to you.
No, I am not talking in circles. If those benefits actually existed, minor would be competitive at the major matches. It has been documented for years that minor is not competitive at major matches.
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Dup
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7 minutes ago, RJH said:
You mean those rules that favor power factor in divisions like open, limited 10, revolver....
Nobody pretends there's a choice, everyone knows there's a right answer and a wrong answer. There's just a few that want to change the rules to suit them to do what they want instead of buying the gun that fits within and takes advantage of the rules, or shooting a division that their gun is better suited to. So yes you can buy the wrong gun even if it still fits in the division
PS don't get your panties in a wad because you asked a silly question LOL
My panties aren't in a wad. Pulling a strawman that far out of left field is stupid.
The whole DVC premise is dead, I agree. I am fine with that...I just want the rules to be cleaned up to reflect it.
4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:limited minor and single stack for limited are equally stupid ideas. There are many different ways to be wrong.
I am sure you have experience in most ways of being wrong...saying they are equally stupid is one of them.
3 minutes ago, MHicks said:I'm not keeping track of what guns and calibers new shooters are showing up with at matches. Sometimes I'll notice. At first I was surprised at all of the discussions about 9mm CZ Tac Sports online because I thought why would anyone buy the 9mm models. Many of the for sale or want to buy listings were for 9mm. Eventually I realized that there are a lot more plinkers and shooters who shoot once or twice a year vs match shooters.
Plinkers and once a year shooters are not buying CZ Tacs and 2011s for limited...sorry...not even close to being true.
2 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:This is a backwards understanding of the rules.
In Open, Limited, SSTK, & Revo, Major Power factor scoring is ALLOWED. In those divisions, you are given the option to shoot Major and reap the scoring benefits associated with it.
It is no different than an optic being ALLOWED in Open. You are given the option to use an optic, and not doing so is ill-advised.
No, my understanding is just fine. The sport was built on DVC. In major vs minor scoring, there is not enough D and V to make up for the benefit major gets for its supposed C. There should be benefits to reap in choosing either power factor...not just additional benefits for shooting major.
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Just now, RJH said:
This is a silly question. Other than PCC all guns fit in open division, but if you bought a single stack to shoot in open division, you bought the wrong gun. If you buy 9 mm to shoot in limited division, you probably bought the wrong gun. If people can't figure that out they deserve what they get LOL
Nobody was talking about buying a single stack to compete in limited...what a stupid point. Thread is called "limited minor" not "which single stack for limited"
If the rules have choices for power factor, and one power factor is always the "wrong" choice, then why pretend there are choices?
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1 hour ago, RJH said:
It certainly isn't top-level GM's.
It appears it's people who bought the wrong gun and now want to change the game to fit them
If they bought a gun that fits the existing rules for a limited gun...how did they buy the wrong gun?
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1 hour ago, shred said:
Probably shooters that have little interest in competing. IIRC CZ sells more Shadow 2s in a year than there are USPSA members total, but there are no floods of new shooters toting shiny new Shadow 2s with the price tags still on them.
A visit to SHOT will show just how tiny a backwater USPSA is in the vast ocean of shooting.
You are right, there isn't a flood of "new" shooters showing up with new CZs...which was my point. There are however many people shooting new CZs and 2011s in limited minor. Many of them are A and above so it would be hard to prove they all have little interest in competing if the investment alone wasn't sufficient evidence. This runs counter to the assertion by some that limited minor is predominantly noobs without enough magazines.
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3 hours ago, Fishbreath said:
You're relying on match participation numbers to say this, but we've already been over why you can't do that. Limited Minor participation is almost exclusively beginners who didn't bring enough magazines to shoot Production, full stop.
3 hours ago, motosapiens said:nope. sure, lots of noobs sign up for limited minor when just learning the sport because that's what they have. that's not the same as 'wanting' limited minor.
Then who is buying all of these 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs in 9mm?
Who are these people constantly trying to change production into limited minor? It certainly isn't noobs who never shot production.
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14 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:
I wasn't advocating changing the rules. Just suggesting that having everyone shoot major would be better than changing the scoring. And if you can't tell the difference between 9 and 40 in a 2011, maybe you need to chrono your loads. As for a division most people want, sure. Most of the complaints are about too many divisions already and stupid rule changes. Kinda like what you're suggesting now.
You are just changing the preferred round from 40 lite to 9 major by allowing 9 major. It does nothing better and nothing to address the complaint that minor isn't competitive or the growing requests/demand for a standalone limited minor division.
I can tell a difference between minor and major in any gun...but the difference is not "significant" or worth an extra point for Cs and Ds. If major was factory .40 or .45 then it might be more noticeable...but not "significant"...165 pf in a 2011 is a powder puff. Going from 9mm to 10mm or 357/44 magnum is when it becomes significant in my opinion.
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7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
a) nobody wants limited minor except little girls.
b) it doesn’t solve any problem. there is no problem with limited.
c) more divisions are bad. there are already way too many.
A. You are in denial or just dishonest. More people want limited minor than single stack or production
B. I can quote you at least 100 times saying minor is not competitive in limited
C. If we add one division, you will still have a spare toe or two left for counting
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1 minute ago, ltdmstr said:
Yep, that's just what we need. Another division.
There is no harm in another division especially when it is the division most people want and it actually solves the problem. If they don't go all minor (except open) then production will become limited minor anyway...we are already half way there.
What exactly does allowing 9 major in limited fix? Actually, don't worry about it...if major is significantly more difficult for you than minor in a 2011 pistol you probably have more important things to think about. Good luck!
On 7/11/2021 at 8:22 PM, ltdmstr said:I have 2011 guns in both 9 and 40. With minor power factor ammo, the 9 is significantly easier to handle and flatter and faster shooting than the .40. It's not even close.
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9 minutes ago, outerlimits said:
dude, stay in yer lane and shoot production.
Lame.
I hang out in CO when I don't feel like loading .40.
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7 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:
Who cares that nobody at the top shoots minor. Means absolutely nothing to me or most other people who shoot Limited. And why does anything need to change? As you can see from many of the comments here, a lot of us like things just fine the way they are.
Who cares what you like? There are still people who think it is fine to huddle on the tundra in grass huts and exist on yak fat...most of what goes on in the world means absolutely nothing to them either. As long as there is still a limited major for you to compete in, why is it that you would care enough to oppose a separate limited minor?
If minor is at a permanent competitive disadvantage, then there is no sense maintaining this farce that minor and major should be in the same division for some unknown reason.
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3 hours ago, shred said:
Winchester 115 FMJ WB and USA Ready and USA Forged so on are listed at 136.8 PF on their website
Winchester 124 GR WB is listed at 141 PF.
Winchester 147 GR WB is listed at 145 PF.
If it any random lot actually makes that in your gun? YMMV.
WWB is so spotty I wouldn't trust published numbers anyhow. Most blazer, PMC, Remington, and Federal are in the mid to low 130s. Somebody buying factory ammo shouldn't have to sweat the chrono.
1 hour ago, mikeg1005 said:Major vs. Minor has almost nothing to do with difficulty of shooting the gun. Ask anyone who shoots SS, its all about stage plan/benefit of extra rounds. There is 0 advantage to having 2-3 extra rounds of 9mm vs. having minor scoring handicap in Limited. No one shoots minor at the top (except Nils last year but I am like 95% sure its because his gun isn't made in major).
Can we please stop discussing changing the only division that make sense (outside of open) with arbitrary s#!t? LOL.
That is why the division doesn't make sense and needs to change.
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9 major will always be a terrible idea in limited...please let it die. 9 +p+ is a nearly equally bad idea.
Splitting limited into separate minor and major divisions is the only true solution. Minor needs to stay at 125 pf so factory ammo makes pf. Major should be raised back up to 175 for the same reason and also so the "real men" can be real men.
A far as the real world people, .40 lead roundnose @ 165 doesn't kill you any better than .355 lead roundnose @ 125...even with the blue coating.
Limited Minor
in USPSA/IPSC Shooting
Posted
1. Great. As the old people shooting .40 die off, who is going to give money to the USPSA and/or your local matches?
2. The fact that agents were overwhelmingly choosing 9mms as personally owned weapons and HRT choosing 9mms over everything else indicates that the people using them prefer 9mm.
3. I agree, that is why I said several times that it is the gun buying public who are buying 9mms that matter.