NickBlasta
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Posts posted by NickBlasta
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On 5/21/2018 at 12:56 PM, rowdyb said:
Because the first carry optics nats was the day after prod nats that year. (I shot them both) and so many people leading up tonit said they'd just shoot their prod set up in CO nats. (Still 10 rounds in both at the time)
There was a very real concern that an iron sight gun would win or have so many in the top placing it would call into question the validity of the new division.
So a clear rule for them as a requirement was born.
Also I have never run any sight other than the optic. If I have a dot I want just the dot.
This is it full stop. It was about ensuring a sense of legitimacy in a fledgling division. There might not be justification for it now, but then again... all rules are arbitrary.
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4 hours ago, Smithcity said:
I cant seem to find the scoring rule that talks about tape rather than a perf...
4.2.2 Cardboard targets must have scoring lines and non-scoring borders clearly marked on the face of the target. The scoring zones reward power in USPSA matches.
Tape creates a non scoring border.
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The tape is your new perf. If it isn't being maintained then the target should be swapped with a fresh one.
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9 hours ago, Sarge said:
One scenario I can think of is laser on close target and shooting from the hip. Might save a fraction of a fraction of a second.
Picking a foot up an inch off the ground right before the start signal is not going to meaningfully benefit your run, but it is still creeping. Quantifying the benefit isn't really germane. The competitor is making some physical action that moves them out of the start position and towards shooting something.
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2 hours ago, ChuckS said:
10.2.6 says nothing about moving a thumb. It's either moving towards a firearm or moving body position.
It isn't a false start since nothing was started. Is there a penalty for making un-ready?
I am just not seeing a defensable path to any existing rule except 10.6 if the guy won't stop doing it.
Your thumb is part of your body. You're physically moving out of the start position in the interest of it being advantageous to your score.
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2 hours ago, ChuckS said:
What rule is that?
10.2.6
Though if you as the RO noticed that the shooter turned off the safety (especially merely after "are you ready") it is a false start and you should ask the competitor to re-assume the start position. If he flipped it off right before you beeped, it would be creeping.
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If the gun is in the competitor's hands, 8.1.2.1 applies. The RO is to instruct the competitor to assume the start position by placing his safety on. If the competitor was already started, 8.2.2 applies:
8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire.
If the gun is placed on a table, or otherwise no longer in the competitor's hands with the safety off, it is a DQ under 10.5.3 same as a handgun.
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2 hours ago, bret said:
Shooting at the area the target would be if activated is not shooting at the target.
Since the justification there is arguable, just use the rule-
9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire. This includes no- shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them. Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.
You get a FTSA regardless of whether you shot at it or not and mikes regardless of whether you hit it or not (say it's visible when set and you put rounds on it but don't activate it, for example).
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30 minutes ago, Sarge said:
Not a NEW rule. It’s always been that way. Out of curiosity will a hammer drop if the bolt is closed on a flag?
Yeah. There's no lockup on a blowback gun so once the bolt clears the hammer it will drop regardless if the gun's in battery or not.
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3 hours ago, euxx said:
The FTSA rule 9.5.7 refers to a course of fire and not a stage. And other parts of rule book refer to string as to courses of fire. That's where most of this confusion is coming from.
Appendix A3 Course of fire (Also “course” and “COF”) An expression used interchangeably with “Stage”.
:)
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You do score certain penalties by string because the rulebook says to, like extra shots, or mandatory reload failures.
The exception for FTSA is written into the FTSA rule.
9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).
As the COF is not over till all strings are completed, you do not tally FTSAs per string.
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4 hours ago, DKorn said:
In case it helps, here’s the entire conversation I had with Troy:
Me:
Are FTSA penalties supposed to be assessed per string or for the stage as a whole? For example, if a competitor suffers a stage-ending malfunction during the second string of a classifier, do they get FTSA penalties (because some targets were not shot at during the second string) or not (because the targets were all shot at at some point during the course of fire as a whole)?
Troy:
Which classifier?
Me:
18-08 The Condor. Shooter correctly engaged all targets on string 1. On string 2, the shooter engaged the first four targets from box B, moved to box A and performed the mandatory reload, and then had a malfunction before engaging T1-T4 from box A.
Ultimately, it didn’t matter in this case because he zero’d the stage anyway with the 4 miles plus other assorted mikes and no shoots from string 1, but I’d still like to know the correct way to score a similar scenario in case this comes up again.Troy:Since a string is a separately timed component of a course of fire, failing to shoot at targets in any given string incurs FTSA penalties. A stage is a string, by definition. A string is a separately timed component of a stage, therefore all stage rules apply.Me:Doesn’t this directly contradict 6.1.1 which seems to indicate that, unless otherwise specified in the WSB, penalties should be recorded at the end of the course of fire and not between strings?Also, the wording of 9.5.7 seems to imply that FTSA penalties should only apply if the target isn’t shot at during the course of fire, although 10.2.7 is worded slightly differently.Definitely confusing, although giving the FTSA penalties is clearly the most logical interpretation of the spirit of the rules.Troy:In the case of multiple strings, you are recording penalties at the end of each timed portion--at least the penalties you can assign at that time. Any scoring penalties--misses, extra hits, no-shoots, are recorded after the range is clear and you can go downrange to score.All you really need for this logic chain is -
1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises – Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings.
9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).
8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.
8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire.
The COF begins with the first string and ends after the last string with RIC. Since FTSA is only considered for any targets unshot after the course of fire, it only matters that they were engaged during any of the component strings.
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7 minutes ago, Lastcat said:
That first paragraph, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Explain "a general procedure". Is that what you tell competitors? Your time was 14.25, a hit factor of 5.236 and a general procedure. Write Troy McManus, go bust his balls. You know who that is right? The Director of the NROI. Go back to the beginning and read what the OP posted. The conversation here, for the most part, hinges around his post.
You receive a general procedural for violating "general regulations", or section 10.1, and is the procedural you give a competitor for failing to comply with a written stage brief. It's also what you're giving when you hit the "general procedural" button in Practiscore while scoring. Do you understand now?
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1 hour ago, Lastcat said:
Negative.
10.2.21 "...failure to comply with stage procedure...." 10.2.2.1 "...procedures do not apply to number of shots fired, which are addressed in other rules".
9.4.5.1 Extra Shots (6-reload-5 does not apply. 6-reload-7 applies)
9.4.5.2 Extra Hits (6-reload-5 does not apply. 6-reload-7 applies, if 7th shot hits)
You can't give people a general procedural for engaging or not engaging targets. The rule is telling you that there are other procedurals for non-engagement, or under, or over-engagement of targets, and to use those in place of a general procedural.
"String 2 - engage array 2 with 2 rounds each" is WSB procedure. If they do not engage the targets in that string you do not give them a general procedural, you pick from the procedurals related to engaging targets. If they engaged them in string 1, and failed to engage them in string 2, all they can really get are mikes.
Additionally, think of it like this - the most common procedure on a field course is "engage targets as visible from inside the fault lines". If I do not engage a target do you give me both a general procedural (for not engaging a target according to the WSB) and a FTSA? No, you cannot give me the general procedural because of 10.2.2.1, you can only use the FTSA.
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2 minutes ago, DKorn said:
That’s what I thought as well, but Troy disagrees.
Troy's opinion isn't a rule, if he wants a ruling that is completely the opposite of the language in the rulebook he should have written it that way.
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The correct call is no procedurals and 4 mikes for the unfired shots.
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2 hours ago, Lastcat said:
Thanks DKorn for the reply from Troy. First time I heard of a string as a separate component of a stage, I'll go with it. If I were to call FTSA on the last 4 targets, as in string 2. I would have to go by the WSB. Where the word engage is used and rule 10.1.1 (non-compliance to the WSB).
Did the shooter engage all targets in String 2?
No = FTSA
Yes = No procedure
I changed my mind last night from my first post. When it comes to scoring, considering the shooter did engage all targets in String 1, I would have not considered any FTSA.
According to Troy and if I ever encounter this, I would site Rule 10.1.1 ".....when a Competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a WSB." Even though Rule 9.5.1 states one round each. Must point back to the word engage in the WSB. Being an RO has a way of creating dirty looks (must have thick skin). Good discussion, thanks.
10.2.2.1 still applies, since it tells you that you can't give stage procedurals for number of shots fired, including insufficient shots, and "zero" is a number of insufficient shots. You have to use a different procedural.
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A barrel isn't a wall support, so you could gain support from it, you would just receive a procedural for shooting while doing so.
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9 hours ago, WaJim said:
HA! HA! HA!
Yes you have....and I knew it was Illegal,
BUT
I didn't want to be that GUY!
We only had 4 smallish stages and 1hr 15 minutes of light.
I was trying to make do, and still try and game the stage without the last 1 rd mag swap.
I knew the rule....but couldn't for the life of me find it .
I know, I'm just playin'. I didn't look at the stage before the match started, or else I'd have fixed it for Bruce. He is learning though, I don't think he'll make the same mistake again.
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Haven't I taught you anything? You should have arbitrated based on the stage being illegal and had it thrown out.
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3 hours ago, bret said:
Quote the rule that says you can't cut off the head of a metric target.
Where does it say a metal no shoot has to look like an unaltered target?
Altered targets get used in matches all the time, are you saying they are illegal targets?
Isn't spray painting hard cover on a target altering a target?
Is cutting a target in half altering a target?
This is personally how I interpret it, I can cut a nice square or rectangle out of the middle of the metric target and have it be legal, so my steel rectangle is the general shape of a legal target.
"General" is a very generous word that you could, without clarification, use to justify almost anything. -
It's been converted to single action at some point, it's more or less the same as converting a CZ to single action. Makes it illegal for production, he can shoot Limited cocked and locked.
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9 hours ago, motosapiens said:
The question is, why would anyone who wasn't a micromanaging dick *want* to prohibit stowing magazines? Let the shooter solve the problem however they feel best.
As in most cases the WSB is the stick, you can usually get what you want with the stage design carrot. You could just design it so they pass the barrel anyway on the way to each position so stuffing pouches is slower.
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10 hours ago, Thomas H said:
(This was regarding 5.2.4.2, and carrying in the hand.)
I've seen several stages over time where the WSB specifically said that stowing or carrying was not allowed, and violating that resulted in procedural penalties for not following the WSB. In cases of barrel starts (for magazines) where the WSB did NOT prohibit stowing and such, carrying was legal.
My understanding was that the WSB could specifically prohibit stowing, but if it didn't, it was legal due to 5.2.4.2.
I have seen such stages too. Prohibiting stowing of magazines is fine because the rule does not specifically allow you to stow magazines. Nor does it disallow it, so conceivably on a mags on barrel start you could stuff your pouches, but as you note, it would be fine for the WSB to prohibit it. However as carrying a magazine in the hand is specifically allowed, it does not seem to logically follow that you could disallow it via WSB.
How would you score this squib event...
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
It also won't let you record a zero time (it has to be at least 00.01, ie you'd be making one up) so DNF is the only option.