NickBlasta
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Posts posted by NickBlasta
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11 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:
As I said before I posted that document just to show that hand/arm placement is not a WSB requirement. If its not specified and there is no default, then yes do what you want within the rules. For handgun that means whatever you want as long as you are not touching the handgun or ammo source. For PCC that means do what ever you want as long as you are not touching the ammo source.
" You now have to specify in the WSB a start position (hands, feet, inside/outside shooting area) for handgun and PCC. "
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On 6/10/2019 at 11:42 AM, Patrick Scott said:
"Since the rule change, I have seen many WSBs that specify where the handgun competitors are standing and where their feet are, but the hand position is missing. If you don’t specify a handgun start position, savvy competitors who know the rules can have their hands hovering right above the grip of their pistol. This is now legal, providing they are not touching their handgun or magazine/speed loader, but it usually takes stage designers and MDs by surprise because that is not what they intended." source-https://nroi.org/stage-design/to-wsb-or-not-to-wsb/
I don't think it means that you can actually do what you want, just that competitors will end up doing what they want because you don't specify. The only rule (and what he says in the previous paragraph) is that you must write a complete WSB or the stage is illegal.
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If hand placement is not specified it must be written in, the WSB is incomplete. There is no default and it isn't permission to put your hands where you like. RM needs to write a complete WSB.
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There isn't one. You instruct the shooter to obey 8.3.1.1, and if they do it again you DQ them for 10.6.
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I mean, the rulebook explicitly allows you to do it. Why be surprised?
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3 hours ago, shred said:
The fact a brace isn't considered a 'stock' by ATF doesn't mean your local RM won't decide that 'of any kind' language applies to your brace as well, declare it one and there you are in the parking lot with nowhere to shoot.
They can also arbitrarily declare your rifle holster is unsafe. There are multiple avenues to prevent you from doing this if a match official wants. That's why you make sure they're on board first.
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1 hour ago, Joe4d said:
Since there is an AND in the first string, instead of a THEN,,, whats to prevent a shooter from shooting 5 on T-1, 5 on T-2, getting his time on last shot, and THEN perform the reload.
The second sentence says to do 2 things, I did them. No mention of order.
I mean we are implying the order doesnt matter with the targets simply because one is written first, so why does the reload matter ?That's actually pretty funny, the language does imply that it's a list and not an order of operations. Ex, "Engage T1, 2, 3, and 4" is different from "Engage T1, then T2, then T3, then T4"...
There are a lot of other classifiers with such language problems. I wonder if they bothered to pay anyone to proofread them. Hey, I know an English major with some spare time...
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https://uspsa.org/viewer//06-03.pdf
The confusion probably arises from it not being in the WSB (the second page) but on the stage diagram (the first page).
Not including it is obviously an oversight. However since the WSB is definitive, one could receive a procedural under 10.2.2.
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34 minutes ago, gdboytyler said:
Interesting thought project. 9mm major AR pistol with brace and maybe use a magwell grip if you can get by with the magwell not getting defined as a foregrip. In CA, vertical fore grips on a semi-auto rifle turns it into a banned assault weapon and magwells are not considered vertical foregrips in CA. So maybe a magwell grip would be legal for OPEN.
If you got by the holster issue, a 9mm major blowback "pistol" probably wouldn't last long and I heard 9 major in PCC's aren't fun to shoot anyway.
That leaves you with a 9mm minor blowback "pistol" in a holster. It's better to stick with PCC.
You could shoot Limited with a .40 upper with irons on it.
A handguard or magwell is not a foregrip. A foregrip is a foregrip.
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2 hours ago, PatJones said:
I don't see where braces are legal.
They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock.
They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant
thereof is not allowed"They aren't a stock. That's why they are a brace and not a stock for the PCC gear rules.
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There is no rule prohibiting it. Like HCH says you could use a braced PCC in a holster and still comply with the rules.
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1 hour ago, pskys2 said:
And video is not allowed to review a run either. So on what basis would a fellow competitor's arbitration be based on?
Other than to try to shame someone into asking for a re-run.
If it happened to more than one shooter and was caught before RO/Competitors signatures, seems like the proper thing is to either throw out the COF or have everyone re-shoot it as the originals are not verifiably correct.
If it's a 1x thing, stuff happens.
9.10.2. They could base it off whatever else they want. Referencing other scores, the ability level of the competitor, whatever. It just must be their opinion that the time is unrealistic.
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50 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:
Is that written somewhere? I've participated in whole squad reshoots at a level 2 (twice) where there was a conflict in interpretation of stage procedure and the head cheese made us all reshoot after we all had that stages scoresheet signed by both parties.
I don't think this thread is really a thing, I think 9.10.1 says you reshoot. You could say the timing device was not faulty if held differently or if it weren't a mouse fart gun or something but it was faulty under the circumstances.
Ordering reshoots is permissible for modifications to the stage structure or procedure, so for example if there was a port causing the timer to miss shots (as at the famous case in CO nats) and the port was removed, the affected competitors would reshoot. This is different from merely ordering someone to reshoot because you think their time is wrong.
But yes, 9.7.4 is the rule. I don't really think you can argue the timer is faulty in this instance, a RO not using it correctly is not the fault of the timer.
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32 minutes ago, Smithcity said:
Can the score be challenged by another shooter via arbitration?
Yes. 11.7.1. There is an hour statute of limitations though.
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You're correct, there's no way to simply instruct the competitor that they must do a reshoot once the score sheet is signed by both parties. You (as the RM) can /ask/ them to reshoot the COF with the suspect time as justification, but if they do not agree, the score stands.
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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:
10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.
What the above rule is saying is that if your gun has a decocking lever, you don't get the benefit of this exception, so if you manually decock (by putting your finger inside the trigger guard and pulling the trigger during loading), it is pretty clearly a DQ.
It's kind of a poorly written rule innit? Finger on the trigger to lower the hammer doesn't usually happen during loading, reloading, or unloading. Loading is accomplished when the magazine is seated. So if you're no longer loading isn't the premise invalid, and as such the exception is meaningless?
For example, the competitor inserts a magazine at make ready, racks the gun, then holds it in his hands as he remembers his plan. He then ignores his decocker and lowers the hammer. He isn't loading/unloading/reloading or moving, so the "finger" DQs don't apply. -
The multigun rules would support such a match, no?
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3 hours ago, Thomas H said:
This is a stage prop. The position of stage props are almost NEVER written into WSBs. I can't recall the last time I have EVER seen a WSB contain information like "the door starts closed" or "the port starts covered" or anything like that. I mean, seriously, say you have a port where you have to pull a rope to open it, but during the walkthrough you yank it hard enough to make it stick open. Do you think you get to start that way if the WSB doesn't say otherwise?
I'm guessing this is what happened - at a past match for OP, someone wrote the starting point of a prop into the WSB. You /could/ do this for clarification to prevent such a situation from happening, but it isn't required. So OP saw the lack of such a note and assumed that meant they could do as they please, where he should have asked how the prop should be set.
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10 hours ago, RolexJohn said:
"How do you asses a procedural for shooting the stage exactly as it was described in the WSB?"
4.5.1
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When a stage is set, you don't need to be told in the WSB that it has to be set. It just is. Permission to be able to freestyle a door open would be allowed by a note in the WSB, lack of a note is not permission.
Doors, props, and activators are the same. You don't get to pick which way a swinger is set, or not have a swinger set, because the WSB doesn't say anything about setting the swinger.
If there is confusion as to the starting state of a prop, you would ask a match official that knows. I would be extremely annoyed by a squad assuming they get to rearrange a stage to their personal liking.
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6 hours ago, HCH said:
How would one work that when it comes to revolver?
We’re getting way off topic here, but it seems like start condition should be the same for everyone. Except PCC. Those things are the devil.
The only relevant portion to a revo is "loaded". It's the same as a normal loaded start.
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17 hours ago, DKorn said:
I was thinking 8.1.4, then realized that you were specifying loaded chamber, no magazine. The only things I can think of that would make this a problem are Revolvers and firearms with magazine disconnects. I can’t find anything in the rules that specifically allows or disallows this - all I can find is stuff referring to loaded or unloaded starts. Again, this is probably because of Revolvers. Can you specify a loaded but not chambered start in USPSA?
8.1.4 is actually the applicable rule.
8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendix D), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a firearm. Written stage briefings may only stipulate when the firearm is to be loaded or when mandatory reloads are required (when permitted under Rules 1.1.5.1 and 1.1.5.2).
Relevant terms, "loaded", "reloaded"-
Loading The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm).
Reloading The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm).
So you can see, the definition of loaded / reloaded does not include "a round in the chamber" meaning that a "magazine inserted, chamber empty" start position is legal. Similarly, since you cannot tell a shooter how much ammo they can load into their gun, you cannot do a "round chambered, magazine removed" start.
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Yeah, I've always thought re-establish is the relevant portion of the text of the rule, if the presence in the shooting area has not been first established then it should be as if they were faulting (one procedural or one per if considered significant, not automatically significant).
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On 4/16/2019 at 7:31 PM, bret said:
Using a 33 Round Glock Mag to barney with, is during the course of fire, Course of Fire begins at Make Ready.
It is longer than 171.25 mm, so you shoot for no score.Technically it depends. If you don't meet the gear requirements for your division by using a hugely illegal magazine, you go to open. You can only upgrade to shooting for no score if you're already in open. (6.2.5.1) You would have to do it, go to open, and do it again to upgrade to shooting for fun.
Unloaded PCC table start, hand position not specified in WSB
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
What I got from it is.. if I could rephrase, "You must write a hand position. If you don't, people will do what they want. As hovering their hand right over the gun is a legal start position [if you wrote it in], people will do that [when you wanted them to be "hands at sides"]."