openclassterror
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Posts posted by openclassterror
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I will confess that I had often been the guy who would buy a knockoff because I just couldn't afford the "real thing". I also wasted a lot of time chasing phantom accuracy problems that would come and go. I found on one of the cheap micro-red dot optics that the plastic lens would randomly tip forward because it wasn't glued in, then tip back and shoot ok again. THAT was a hard one to track down! One time I had the money to buy genuine first-rate optics, and what a world of difference! Now I will save my money, starve my children, rent out my wife, whatever I have to do to get the right tool for the job the first time. No more "tide me over til I can afford it" purchases. Just a waste of money!
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I was hoping you would say what magazine the article was in. I will pick up a copy tomorrow! Does Shooting Illustrated have many articles on 3gun related stuff? If so might be worth a subscription.
Tom
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+1 on the big magwell. I stepped up from a forged Milspec lower with the mag opening machined out to the very limit to a Noveske Gen 2 ( also forged, but a HUUUGE funnel). Man, you could throw the magazine from 3 feet away and it would go in! Only drawback is that it won't run the surefire 60rd mags I've heard. Never tried it myself, I use PMAGs with the +18 extension if I can't get it done with a 30. I think the Seekins has a big funnel, and I am sure there are others. Sending a flared quality lower to JP would be my choice if I didn't build my own toys.
Tom
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I use Shooters Choice red gun grease on the cam pin ONLY, and CLP on the rest of the BCG. I have noticed a HUGE reduction on cam pin wear from the cam slot, and the grease stays put and doesn't migrate onto the carrier like others I have tried. I have noticed across the board that when it is cold at our matches (under 30 deg), MOST gun oils get sluggish and I see a LOT of short strokes/ double feeds as an RO. CLP applied the morning of the match seems to stay thin. Hoppes seems the worst, Outers a close second for going goopy when it is cold. In 20 years of shooting I never saw this until I started shooting 3gun, because I never shot an AR when the weather sucked!
Tom
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Hmmmm quote doesn't seem to be working. Dumb question, but since the .300 BLK/Whisper is same case head as 5.56, why does it hold less ammo? We aren't talking 6.8SPC or 6.5 Grendel. Is it because of bullet width between mag guide rails? We have one guy that brings his, biggest issue is that timers won't trigger off his shots half the time unless I hold it RIGHT next to his can. Which is unnerving for both of us. I keep asking him to take the suppressor off, but his POI shifts and he doesn't have the dope on his scope adjustments because he never removes the can. Half the time I just snap the belt clip against the timer case when he takes his last shot to get a number. Might be off by half a second, but he is a mid-pack shooter so nobody whines. Makes me hate the stages that end with the rifle though....
Tom
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I use a Jard on my open rifle, my son uses a JP. I install probably 30+ AR triggers a year and for the VAST majority I recommend JPs. They are reasonably priced, easy to set, and easy to maintain. I personally like the Jard slightly better, but it requires readjustment from time to time to keep it at the very limit of sweetness. If you fully understand how it works and are willing to maintain it, great. If you like to shoot but not tinker, have the JP set up by someone who knows how, and shoot it. For a loooong time. The Gold and McTrig are nice, but if you have several rifles to run, it gets expensive. I would rather have the EXACT same 'good" trigger in all my rifles than re-adjust from one "nice" trigger to other "not-so-nice" triggers every time I switch rifles, because I could only afford one trigger. IMO.
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As long as the existing governing bodies make their rule sets public (so we can emulate at the club level to prep for big matches if we want) I don't see any need to force clubs under an umbrella. We are a 3GN affiliated club, and we have one classifier stage at each match, but all other stages are essentially outlaw. Sometimes local club rules trump the big boys. For instance, our local gun range does not allow shot larger than 7-1/2 anywhere on the range. (board is comprised almost entirely of skeet/trap people who don't understand why anyone would need buckshot or slugs, or even high base 6s to knock over a steel at 40 yds.) So we hafta design our stages around the rules we have at the local level which don't always mesh with the major bodies. Which is one reason our range has an Action Pistol Club instead of IPSC or USPSA, because it is more flexible.
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My son used that Independence stuff in the match last Saturday. In a rifle that has been quite dependable he had about 15 short strokes over 3 stages with a total round count of about 50-60. After the match I took his rifle up to an empty bay and dumped 2 partial mags of Federal 55gr FMJs from my match leftovers (about 30-35 rds total) with ZERO malfs. Might try some good ammo. I was not impressed with that stuff.
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The MXT is the modular tube. The nut is a separate piece, allowing you to change tube lengths without buying another complete assembly. The EXT is a one-piece unit as I recall. If you mess up the MXT nut while modifying, it is much less expensive to replace, as all components can be purchased separately. Unfortunately, the factory nut is not long enough to re-machine to fit the Stoeger unless you cut the end off the Stoeger mag tube. That is probably why Nordic says they don't intend to make a nut for our shotguns. It has to be a whole new longer part, not just a different version of the one they already make.
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Remington will replace the interceptor latch stud if you send it in to a warranty repair shop. My landlord has about 20 years worth of duck and geese shooting on his, and when he sent it in the repair tech called him and said it was the most worn shotgun he had ever seen. (Mostly a diet of 3" mag steels. A LOT of them. He isn't a great shot
) They fixed it though. As I recall, replacing the stud, rebluing the receiver, and putting in all-new wear parts set him back $190. Shoots like new again. I still have mine as a backup gun, and no failures since the bolt carrier broke during a match and got replaced. It has the wide retainer from brownell's installed and the gas ports opened up one drill size. It cycles noticeably faster that way, but I can still outrun it now that I am used to my inertia gun. For a first gun, "run what ya brung", don't spend money on a new shotgun until you have handled a bunch and formed your own opinions on what you want. Otherwise you might be on your fourth or fifth shotgun before you are happy.Tom
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I appreciate your interest but to be clear I am not marketing until my inclusion in the Enos vendor list is complete. I value the forum people here and don't want to jump the gun. Kelley is not only a competent gun mechanic, but a passing fair 3gunner as well. Might look at his standings in the 3Gun Nation Pro series.
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Getting the sticky grease off makes a difference on cycling, also I recommend putting it away with the slide locked back for a week to compress the recoil spring. You will probably still have a little trouble getting reliable cycling out of the lightest of loads. However, I am a HUGE proponent of the 3000, so I think as long as you identify the low threshold of recoil it takes to run it and stay above those loads you will be very happy. The very feature that allows ghost loading (the carrier is activated when the bolt is almost to the rear of its travel) is the Achilles' heel on weak loads. If the bolt doesn't go all the way back on cycling, it won't lift the next round. Let me know what mag tube extension you have to run on the 3500. We are running a batch of adapters for the Nordic tubes that allows them to work on the 3000s, I wonder if the 3500 is the same. It is similar to the Nova/Supernova though not interchangeable. They will go for sale as soon as I have my vendor account set up with Brian so I am official on the forum. Hopefully within the next 2-3 weeks. I have already talked to him, but my website isn't set up for consumers yet. Many thanks to Mr Kelley for leading the way on this platform!
Tom
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+1 for Stoeger M3000. I have shot mine in every match since July I think, and run the hell out of it. For the money, don't know of a better deal. About 6 months ago the campfire discussion at our local club led 3 guys to determine that the 930 was the way to go. One guy bought the Rhythm and 2 the JM. The only one of the 3 that has not been returned to Mossberg for repairs already is the Rhythm. Both JMs had problems with the mag follower hanging up partway through the tube right out of the box. Sad part is, both waited weeks for them because they are in such high demand, ended up buying for inflated prices on gunbroker, then were disappointed. All 3 have had meltdown matches in the last 3-4 months where the shotgun quit cycling partway through. I have several thousand rounds through the Stoeger, and have only cleaned it three times, one of which was to get the metal chips out of the receiver after flaring the loading port and drilling barrel ports (I shoot open class). I have had exactly 2(!) FTFs out of 6 months use and thousands of shells, not counting low recoil slugs (it doesn't like one brand). I have NO complaints!
Tom
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The anti-seize is not to hide a poor finish, but to prevent galling at high torque conditions. Many times I have removed really tight barrel nuts and found the anodizing badly worn on the threads, esp on factory DPMS installs. This creates the steel-on bare aluminum galvanic interface that the last several posters mentioned. Anti-seize allows the threads to torque smoothly without friction (heat) welding and tearing the surface of the material.
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Using proper grammar and punctuation might give a little more credence to your opinions if you are blasting someone else who is actually reporting the results of physical testing. Just saying......
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At our shop we make a free float rail system that attaches with a special nut that has infinite timing. After much experimentation we determined that MOST of the time, any torque beyond 45 ft/lbs is detrimental to accuracy, with everything else in the system identical (assuming minimal clearance on barrel extension OD. If barrel is sloppy in receiver tube, you have another set of accuracy problems). If you use the multi step torqueing process and anti-seize, it should never come loose at 35 ft/lbs. Grinding the teeth off a standard type barrel nut usually causes trouble with clamp-on plastic handguards because most types have small bumps in the barrel nut groove to keep them from moving around, which correspond to the teeth on the nut when timed correctly. If not timed properly and the offending tooth is just ground away by the gas tube, the hand guards will not fit in their correct location. The Midwest free float hand guards (among others) also use these teeth to orient the top rail upright, so again, just grinding off the top tooth is badness. Best thing to do is try another nut, shim, or lap end of receiver. I try to never go more than 50 ft/lbs if at all possible. Also, if you are not using a properly fitting fixture block, you risk twisting or bending the receiver if you push it to the high limit.
Tom
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As I understand it, M193 was about 150fps slower, XM193 was the military designation for an improved version. It uses an improved powder formula to achieve the current velocity, with less velocity loss in carbine barrels, and also a boat tail as opposed to the M193 flat base. Original M193 spec was along the lines of 3050 out of a 20in barrel. My rifle clocks that out of a 14.5 with XM193. Please correct me if I am mistaken
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I agree with the heavy complaint, but I would rather trim weight somewhere else on the rifle, or (God forbid) lift weights rather than use a crummier scope that can't handle some banging around just to save 6oz. I wouldn't have spent as much on my optics platform as on my rifle if I didn't think that durability was important. I have not been disappointed. Knock on wood, but since installing the Vortex, I have gone 1 for 1 on long range steels in all but 2 matches since early summer.
:P My old scope (won't mention the brand because they are generally pretty good) needed to be re-zeroed about every third match. THAT gets old! -
I have had ZERO reliability issues with mine, and I even let my 11 year old son use it in a few matches. If it can hold up to THAT abuse, should be good for direct nuclear detonation!
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Lightweight carriers are part of a bigger system change if you want to get the benefit from them. Main point is to soften the gun movement from the buffer bottoming out with a big sliding weight in front of it. You can shoot aimed doubles faster if you minimize gun movement from recoil. In combination with light loads and turned down gas block, (and a well tuned brake) you can really reduce the gun movement from the reciprocating mass. I shoot doubles on everything under 50 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger twice, and gun movement is so minimal the shots usually land within 3 inches of each other. Does it help your long range shooting? Not really, and the longer stuff is where time is really gained or lost. Mostly makes a difference in hosing stages. Unfortunately, hosing stages tend to favor young, fit athletes, and even with vastly superior gear, us old fat guys can't keep up. The money spent on the JP upgrade will be better invested in practice ammo, or a rimfire upper so you can shoot a lot more. If you are running warp speed in matches, but occasionally drop points from losing the second shot of your doubles, then it will be an improvement. But it will not make you more than a couple seconds FASTER in a complete match. In my experience, at least. I went that route because I am a techie, and a gunsmith who can do my own work, and addicted to open class, and it has cool factor.
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The 3000 has a longer barrel shank than the 2000 and an improved ejector system. Those are the main differences, others are mostly cosmetic. It is a significant improvement for rigidity, reliability, and wear resistance. 2000 got a reputation as a finicky gun, poorly fit and finished. In that regard, the 3000 is also much improved.
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Ultrasonic brass cleaner. Just don't leave it in too long, or it will strip the finish or eat the screw...... or so I've heard
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If ever there was a time for a friggin lawyer this would be it. Those devious souls will have some way to hide the assets from the state. Have you tried talking to somebody to find out if you can save it without a bunch of people shootin the place up? My concern is that if ever you wanted to use it for something else, the lead abatement costs could probably negate any profit you make off the shooting range idea.
Tom
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General consensus is that JP captured spring can be fussy (though I have had no problems personally), and special rate springs are hard to come by. I have no experience with Tubb springs, though I have had universally good experiences with his bolt gun parts. Wolff also makes good quality AR springs. All 3 are generally known for good customer service and standing behind their products, so can't really go too wrong here, IMO
) They fixed it though. As I recall, replacing the stud, rebluing the receiver, and putting in all-new wear parts set him back $190. Shoots like new again. I still have mine as a backup gun, and no failures since the bolt carrier broke during a match and got replaced. It has the wide retainer from brownell's installed and the gas ports opened up one drill size. It cycles noticeably faster that way, but I can still outrun it now that I am used to my inertia gun. For a first gun, "run what ya brung", don't spend money on a new shotgun until you have handled a bunch and formed your own opinions on what you want. Otherwise you might be on your fourth or fifth shotgun before you are happy.
:P My old scope (won't mention the brand because they are generally pretty good) needed to be re-zeroed about every third match. THAT gets old!
Stoeger M 3500
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
If it isn't right, it will not fit loose. It WILL NOT SCREW ON. You can force it, and deform the threads, but it is an interference fit. I would be interested to know, do you have any calipers with which to measure the threads on your shotgun magazine tube? (the tube on the gun, not the extension) On mine, the thread is 1.000 outside diameter, with 2mm thread pitch. (One turn is .0787 inches.) The male part of the thread is .049 wide, and the gap between threads is only .029. The nut provided me by Nordic was approx. 1.75mm thread pitch, and groove and land of thread were the same width prior to machining. I am interested to find out if the discrepancy is in the shotguns, or the nuts provided by Nordic. We are running the first batch of barrel nuts right now to fit the threads on my shotgun, so I am hoping we aren't making a part due to tolerance issues at Nordic. I am eagerly awaiting more info on this.
Thread Specs on Stoeger M3000- (inch equiv)
Major diameter 1.000
Minor Diameter 0.965
Square buttress thread type
width of thread .049
width of groove .029
total thread pitch (one revolution) 0.079
total thread length 0.560
Pilot length 0.200
Pilot diameter 0.960
Is this the same?