wheelie
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Posts posted by wheelie
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What all my whining is about is this:
I think the rule change should be to "any revolver (no round limit) scored minor and major as otherwise done in the sport". That change allows in the highest numbers of fresh shooters and new guns.
If you're gonna change it, change it big and make it worthwhile. Open it up.
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Good to hear some feedback from Chuck Anderson. I don't know Chuck but its nice to hear from someone in an official position about what is happening/might happen/being considered. My comment re: private act is mostly that as far as our discussion here on this board there seemed to be a short circuiting of discussion when suddenly it was announced that some version of what we were discussing was being considered. The by-laws limit the number of changes within a two year period and that kind of worried me. But this is the internet and I might be a dog as far as you know. ;>)
Going 8 shot is fine with me but I'll have to abstain from buying a new blaster to be sorta maybe competitive. I'm fully invested in .45 ACP like it or not, and fjust not gonna drops the funds to take up a new rig. Also, and FWIW, I could see liking a major 8 shot revolver - but that seems to be left out of the mix right now.
I think what bothers me is the complete gamer thing being applied to the most hardcore class. IMO. But I am a relic and have re-entered this game with a 30 year old mindset that does not always meld with how the game is run now.
Finally, I'm generally and almost always in favor of the simplest, barest rules that will get the job done.I like that about Revolver class as it is. Not very many rules - just requires a round thing that turns pretty much.
EDIT: I posted this before reading the third page of the thread so if it seems out of place - it is a bit.
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snipped a bunch...
I just don't see revolver class booming with just allowing in 8 shot guns in. But maybe your right and it will take off.
It is a game and some of us Are having fun with it as is even if you are not.
Seems to me that this has pretty much turned into a private act for those who particularly want to shoot 8 shot minor guns. If the only question before the BOD is "8 minor / 6 major" all the other ideas for improving revolver class are elimnated from consideration without any real discussion. Or am I missing some important step in communicating with the mother ship?
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You could use a dremel if you're good at it.
I've done many (in steel) with a bearing scraper to start and then a dremel to smooth and polish.
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Ruger and S&W made service style revolvers in 9mm some years back.
No reason not to do it other than - can they sell enough to make it worth tooling up the machines or is some other project more rewarding.
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Sorry for the lack of clarity (posting from the airport, in hopes of getting in front of some of rumor mill that might already be started)
. The vote that went through was for further discussion, seeking input from the membership. No equipment changes yet.
And earlier wrote:
Minor 8 / Major 6 has been approved, for member review and input.
Further discussion of the whole situation or only the possibility of Minor 8 / Major 6?
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If the classifier scores are what everybody is concerned about I don't think there would be a problem for the 8 shot revolvers being required to reload after 6. Or as suggested keep the 8 shot classifiers seperate during any provisional period. As far as the 625 still being available it is only a 4" barrel not close to the same gun as a 625 5" that USPSA shooters are using.
I can't see there being much difference in scoring between a 4 or 5 inch 625.
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I'd make 8 shot revolver a provisional class for 2-3 years and let major or minor be determined like any other gun. The classifiers would be applied to the "8 shot revolver provisional class" scores as a separate group. Then after 2-3 years merge all revolvers into one class. You won't make everyone happy, but the main thing is not to run anyone off. Big changes that render the sport less fun for some are a bad idea. This arrangment will let more people shoot the gun they want.
If there was sufficient organizational support for revolver division (or just lower capacity guns in general), we'd see some 6 neutral stages in every match. And yes, I know its not there.
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I'm shooting 5.5 of WSF with a 230 lead bullet. Its accurate, reasonably clean and measures great. I have not chronographed it but it is definitely major. I think if you want mid to full power .45 ACP ammunition WSF is a good choice. If you want the lightest possible loads then I suggest a faster powder.
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Blue Wonder cleaner will remove all the crud off the outside (and inside) by simply applying it and letting sit for 5-10 minutes and then a good going over with a toothbrush. Rinse with HOT water, then a blast of Remoil, PG2000, Starett M1 or similar and wipe it dry. Another method uses Hoppes or similar bore cleaner (GI, EdsRed, etc) and giving the gun a coating, scrubbing with toothbrush letting it sit then wiping off a bit later. No need for hot water rinse or subsequent oiling. I do use a bore brush with either method. If you pay attention and don't let the cleaner on the outside drool into the inside works, you will rarely need to remove the sideplate.
I clean the cylinder and chambers most carefully, then the bore. A smudge or two on the outside hardly matters but I usually have a pretty shiny clean gun when its over. Otherwise (IMO) I am not prepared to shoot the next time. I like being prepared and ready to go.
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If you can, run some 220 to your machine and buy a VFD rated for about 2hp. I have two TECOs (7300s with built in speed control by dial, IIRC) I bought from factorymation.com - they work great. For most uses I never have to swap speeds manually, but I still can if needed to get max torque.
If your motor will stand it (read the label and look for an inverter rating) you can run the speed up to about 1.5 whats on the label - so 90 hz instead of 60 which gives you1.5 the previous rpm. This is very nice if you need more spindle speed for small cutters or woodworking.
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Some of this will be redundant.
I like the magnetic type rack. I made mine to hold five clips, others prefer seven. Buy clips directly from ranch products, they're about $35/100.
Barrel length matters unless its for rules of your chosen game - otherwise its personal preference. I have a holster from talon tactical, the R4 and think its pretty much perfect, its IDPA legal and of course OK for other games. Super duper space gun looking cut-away holsters are not necessary, you only draw once in these games, so conventional holsters are fine IMO. A stable holster for a consistent draw is very important, exact style is not so much.
If you can't do gun work yourself, find a good revolver gunsmith. You'll probably want to bevel the chamber edges, do an action job, might look at checking the dimensions of the chambers and throats on the more recent guns.
Have fun.
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This conversation is like cycling that bullet around that has the bad primer in it. You can keep doing it over and over but deep down, you already know what's going to happen.
Indeed, but if you don't cycle it around there is no chance of it going off.
So you keep pulling it.
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snipped a whole bunch...
The safety test rendered my firearm inoperable for the entire match and thankfully I had two staff members offer to let me borrow setups from them so I could complete the match. The individual performing the safety check told me the check was to ensure that there was no way the cylinder could be moving with the hammer in the process of falling, causing an "out of battery" condition and catastrophe. The individual said he was made aware of these revolver safety features from browsing the internet and wanted to test them.
snipped more...
Ludicrous.
And I suppose this person is well credentialed, which makes this kind of thing perfectly OK.
(In someone alternate universe)
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Or incent any and every revolver shooter by promising a couple of 6 neutral stages. No detriment to anyone, big benefit to revolver shooters and to the sport via higher participation.
After the two threads that are running here are fully considered I'd be in favor of allowing any shooter to compete with a revolver. Any revolver. If its an 8 shooter that makes major that is fine with me.
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I don't doubt that changing the entire USPSA system to 6 shot neutral will never happen. I am also positive that simply building in at least one (even better a couple) 6 shot neutral COF in each match is absolutely possible. Its actually a simple decision and a simple execution. It takes nothing away from anyone who is currently invested in a high capacity blaster. (we're doing it here) Total round count can still be up in the high 20s for those who want to hear a lot of noise. It is not hard to make a 6 neutral stage that is a great test of any shooter's ability and not just a contest to see who bought the gun that holds the most bullets.
Its actually kind of funny hearing the blaster boys complain about shooting classifers. Classifiers are a form of relief for me - usually they are an actual test of shooting ability. I move way up in the rankings. I like that. I'm here for the test and I don't mind that it is a strenuous test. But most shooters are not looking for a repetitive ass kicking every match when they have to pay an entry fee to receive said ass kicking.
This is a great discussion and I appreciate everyone's responses and participation.
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I would also like to remind you guys... you "competitive guys", and guys that shoot the larger matches are the minority in the sport. You need to keep that in mind when you set about to change things.
I sorta understand what you are saying, cas, but on the other hand--this is a competitive sport! It's not scuba-diving, mountain climbing, or kite flying. We are in this game to compete, to improve, and to win (at some level or another). I don't particularly like the classification system in USPSA, but I accept that it is a way for lower-level shooters to identify their competition and set goals.
I understand that not everybody is a top-level shooter. And I understand that some are never going to be top-level, no matter how hard they try. But I don't think I would understand trying to tailor the rules of our competitive sport to the club-level shooters who just are in it to diddle around with no real investment of effort, the guys we all know who just show up at matches to talk with their buddies and mess around. Not that there's anything wrong with "just shooting for fun," but I don't think we should build our rulebook around that mentality.
cas, the effort put forth, is to bring in more revo shooters to our ranks. At the local matches there are usually 1 to 3 Revo shooters, if that. Not only is the design to get more particpation at the "Big" matches but at the local levels also. For there is where the division must grow. Oh Yea +1 on what Carmoney wrote later, Roger D. Davis
These three posts pretty much define the issue. This is not just about guns or how many rounds they hold. Its about whether you want to grow participation. The only way to grow participation is to make the sport more inclusive, to make it more fun and more attractive to as many people as possible.
There is a balance to be struck between the majority of participants who provide the opportunity for the dominant shooters to win and those dominant shooters. The way you get the balance is by making adjustments that encourage more participants generally while not discouraging the "serious" shooters. To make a distinction between those groups and placing higher value on one is dangerous. The sport has to have both groups participating. For someone to win in a meaningful way requires that there are a significant number of competitiors involved in the contest. You need a lot of "losers" to have one "winner".
Consider a redefining of groups into one called "participants". There has to be an entry level, the elite and lots of room in between. Room for everyone without taking anything away for others. You've got to give new participants a reason to buy into the sport. High bars to leap over and more flaming hoops to jump through won't get it done.
Right now 6 shot guns are at a significant disadvantage, not becuase the shooters are less good but purely because of a tilted playing field. Level the field and there will be more revolver shooters and a net gain of particpants in the sport with other gun types.
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We've had a couple of very good 6 neutral stages here lately. No complaints from anyone - but they were fairly high total round count.
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A light single action will always have an advantage on Splits over a Revo. We're talking say .16 with a 1911 and .20 with a Revo. But on Transitions, target to target, it's a wash, with proper training and practice neither have a significant advantage. That's why on Steel, your only limitation is maximum rounds you have available. In any course that has more than 1 shot per target you can start losing ground. But the good news is in the real world a committed, experienced Revo will hold his own against like skilled Semi's in the actual shooting. With the difference being in the reloads, both the number and difficulty of, and stage breakdown.
^^^ This ^^^^
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To answer the question about whether the BOD knows about the intrest and the poll.......I can definately say YES !!!! as at least 1 of the BOD members is participating in the discussion right Flex ?
I have spoken with a couple others and the President about this issue and a few others. They are aware of the comments and are taking it into consideration.......but this stuff takes time so be patient.
Hop
That said, I'll throw in that the key to increased participatiion is to include not exclude. That applies to the equipment (guns) and the test (matches). If you really want more shooters, then you have to do something to give them a reason to come - which generally means at least a level playing field. "Six neutral" stages make a huge difference. As long as the matches put the 6 and 8 shooters at an insurmountable disadvantage on every stage don't expect increased participation from those shooters.
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It was the simple fix. No problems at all today. I have lots of blue loctite on the screw now.
The "domed" firing pin bushing in my gun was not domed it just protruded with a fairly sharp edge. The gun worked fine after cutting the bushing flat and was lots smoother. I guess I could see that if done right this elevated bushing could help with smooth function but mine did not. This might have been related to the tight chambers and bushing together. I worked both at the same time. (reamed chambers and stoned bushing flush) Maybe a combination of a little snugness of the six cartridges in tight chambers and then having to be drug past a raised bushing caused the almost ratchet like feel I was getting. 4-5 cylinder fulls and it would start catching. Now the gun runs free and easy and no change in trigger pull when the gun is hot and dirty. It was way too tight as it came and probably was the reason it got traded in before I bought it. Wouldn't shoot a box of factory ammo without cleaning.
All my prior experience has been with old style guns from years ago, prior to full moons and frame mount pins. I never saw any of this with half moons or otherwise and I did lots of revolver work when I was in the business.
I'm going to look at the hammer shims idea. The hammer in this thing is a bit wobbly side to side and does have big rub marks on it. Shims should cut the drag down a bit and get a little harder hit for the same spring tension. I don't have a suitable pull gage, just a spring scale type that goes to 6 pounds, made for single action type pull. 6 pounds won't pull it through.
Feel free to give any answer you want - I asked for help and I thank you all for it. And this is not an argument forum, its a discussion forum. Just go ahead and write what you're thinking and we might all learn something.
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So, I went down to bend the spring and whadya know - the strain screw has backed out. This after I loctited it a couple of months ago. Now its got another big dose of loctite. I'll watch it.
After all the going around with this gun I about melted down last week when it misfired again after thinking I had it cured. Now it seems to be just the strain screw backing out. I hope so, because I'll look stupid but the gun will be fixed.
About the firing pin bushing -- This gun would hang a cartridge on the firing pin bushing every couple of cylinder fulls, worse when it got dirty and just enough to throw me off. Just a momentary grab and catch trigger pull. That's why I stoned it down. I don't think it has anything to do with the misfiring. I understand what you are saying about it but its a darn poor design to think that you can smoothly drag 6 cartridges over that kind of hump. And yes, it does have .006 more headspace than it did. I measured before I stated cutting and it has no more than several other older guns I have. Do all the "firing pin in the frame" guns have this hump? (other calibers)?
Thanks again to everyone for all the help.
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Thanks for all the help.
I'll bend the spring a bit.
I'll let you know how it goes.
And will measure primers, but not for tomorrow, its too late.
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Whoops - left out the hammer sliding around in the gun.
I may order some washers and see about that.
Do I need to take out the (personally offensive and absolutely foolish) safety trinkets? Or just leave then in?
Tell me about Single Stack Para .45's please.
in 1911-style Pistols
Posted
I'd love to hear some user reports on the Para single stack 1911s. I'm thinking about one of the Elite Target models. Seems like a pretty nice gun for not too much money.
Thanks!