[Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?]

Is it reasonable? Sure. Is it meaningful?

If it is reasonable, and if it something that many the customers use as a spend - look elsewhere criteria, that can be meaningful.

The other side of it, if there is no quantification of performance that is not a good thing for quality control or any learning and continuous improvement. You can measure aspects of the process but if you do not know the end result, well, you just do not know. Even if there was such a thing as a perfect process which was immune to time and personal change, components are suspect from piece to piece (metalurgy and casting temperature variance for example) and over time (tooling wear for example). I think there is a thread in the XD forum about a batch of Barstow barrels breaking lugs in XD's or XDm's, again, as a for example (did not look up the thread to get a refresher on details).

I don't know percentages, but a lot of shooters place importance on quantifying how well their gun shoots. I think in Enos's book he said he would not settle for worse than 2" at 50 yards. My guns that group well on the bench are also the guns that I can shoot best free hand or in competition, so comparing bench group size is an important evaluation tool to me.

[Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?]

I held back most of my opinion from my first posting of this thread but since the discussion has started ill add to it. It is if my opinion that an accuracy guarantee is largely meaningless with most pistols and even moreso with a "service pistol" like an xd or any number of variants like it. The first reason being what springer mentioned. There are too many variables to control. Ransom rests are far from an end all be all quantifier of accuracy. The rest itself imparts variables that arent precisely repeatable. There are various arguments that can be found through searching the web. When it comes to practical shooting there are other factors that lend themselves to shooting a pistol accurately vs shooting an accurate pistol. The trigger being one of the biggest factors im referring to. Again, without quantifying hard numbers ill shoot a pistol better with average accuracy and a great trigger vs a gun with an average trigger and great accuracy. Im all for having some sort of guarantee when i shell out my hard earned money but the guarantee in this game comes from the reputation of good companies and good gunsmiths that make a gun more accurate in the hands of practical shooters. Unfortunately that is hard to quantify with numbers. All the best.

Absolutely a valid way to look at things I think and a ransom rest is certainly not the only way to verify accuracy. I guess deep down I'm a Reagan man, "trust, but verify" .

[Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?]

We can not possibly give and X% improvement guarantee, as there is no way to know what the starting point is for your particular pistol. I've had factory barrels that group incredibly well and you might have a negligible gain in accuracy. The XD/XDM is service type pistol and there is slide and frame play and the polymer grip does not lend itself well to testing in a fixture, even if you tighten them up, which has side effects also. We went away from the accuracy guarantee years ago, because it was more of a headache than anything else with people who did not use the ammunition or have the skill to realize the improvements. An accurate barrel doesn't mean that you will shoot a better group, it just means the bullets will go more precisely where you tell them to go. We fit every barrel to the same standard and we only use Barsto barrels, so the average Joe gets the same care as any big name shooter, and I don't think that is unique to use for the people I recommended.

Ok, the horse is still dead .

For what it is worth, I don't think that the typical customer will be looking for an "X% improvement guarantee" . I think a lot of us are looking for something like what you get from outfits like CZ custom and Les Baer & etc that will tell you what the gun can do at X yards when they are done with it (under controlled conditions of course).

[Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?]

We know better than to ransom rest a XD and we explained this previously. Rich will tell you the same thing. We have fit barrels for some of the top competitors at the Bianchi Cup using the XDM 5.25 and our barrel fitting is good enough for them. We can provide test targets at 25 yards (that is were we test them) on request with our match ammo on request. Rich would do a great job for you as would Barsto and Springfield.

An explanation somewhere about the ransom rest sounds like a good chance for me to learn something, perhaps it was explained somewhere on this forum?

Otherwise, when I enquired previously via email request what I got back from SP was "We don't offer any kind of accuracy guarantees." and then later after I questioned this the response was "We can not control the ammo you shoot, the conditions, or your shooting skill." If there is confusion about what I asked or was told and I could help by resending the complete emails, please feel free to pm me.

If test targets and some reasonable guarantee of results are available this is what seems reasonable to me and what I was looking for.

I have no wish to fuss at SP or anybody else, just looking to see if I can get some accuracy work done and know for sure what I'm paying for. I understand that pretty much all manufacturers do some impressive work for some top shooters but I'm guessing that their is an extreme level of scrutiny that is associated with those guns, how much if any of that transfers to average Joe Blows gun probably varies quite a bit based upon manufacturer and circumstances (or at least to me that seems like a reasonable assumption).

[Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?]

I would recommend Rich at Canyon Creek too but he is not accepting work at this time and I'm not positive he does sample targets?... Whats your timeframe for having this done?

Definitely looks like 1 for the short list. Thanks folks!

Time frame is sometime between now and next spring if possible.

[Who would you go to for XD accuracy work?]

Really like the XD platform but of the three I have purchased one (a 4", made back when the guns were supplied with a test target) is a tack driver since day one, one I gambled on and had a new barrel installed (came out well but I don't know if I just got lucky), and the other one I'd like to get made more accurate.

I've tried the usual suspects for match barrel installation and I figured it would be like getting accuracy work done on a CZ for example, they tell you what you can expect and supply a test target to verify results either for free or for a fair fee.

I tried Springfield, they do not check their work after barrel install, could not tell me what accuracy they would guarantee ("groups sizes are generally about 1/2 what they were") and had the cahones to suggest a $100.00 fee if I wanted a test target. Tried Springer Precision next, similar response except I got the feeling that they do not even have the ability to ransom rest test the gun.

I hate to give up on getting the work done, but I hate to spend significant money with any vendor who can't tell me what I'm getting for the money and who won't specify any sort of criteria for acceptable work.

Any suggestions on who might be able to install a match barrel & verify performance to a reasonable specification?

[Rapid dry fire, sights moving]

there is a difference between the sights 'moving' while shooting and being 'disturbed' out of alignment when you pull the trigger because of poor trigger mechanics.

Agreed.

Per the original post "I dry fired my pistol rapidly (without reset) just to see how fast I can make the trigger move. In doing so, I also notice my front sight wiggle just a bit". Per Stoeger's stuff (bottom of page 18 in the skills and drills book for example) , sometimes a careful trigger press is needed for a difficult target, and that is not the sort of trigger control he uses on a close range target. It seems to me that he is slowing down the trigger press for the difficult shots in order to cut down on the wiggle that the original poster observed.

[Rapid dry fire, sights moving]

A good friend is a master revolver person. He said his front sight always wiggles a bit when he pulls the trigger. This does not keep him from making fast tight shots at matches.

I was reading one of Stoeger's books where he talks about doing 50 yard drills, he said the front sight always moves and you get used to it (paraphrasing, I'm too lazy to go dig up the exact quote) , he also talks about learning to judge how much trigger control is neccessary depending upon target difficulty but I think that was on one of his DVD's. My take away was that even he can't hold a gun dead steady when aiming and he needs to make a slower trigger press to keep the gun on target for the really difficult shots.

[What does a firing pin block do]

What good is DQ if the gun went off and somebody got hit?

Better ban him for life so its one less chance to happen again?

Im getting nowhere... in this game

Fair point I think. In this case the DQ was just a formality. The guy could not have finished the day with his leg hurting and it ain't like anyone looks at the rule book and then decides whether or not to face flop and send his gun tumbling.

I was lucky enough to attend the single stack nationals this year and one of the R.O.'s told of Rob Leatham (spelling?) being dq'd from that match for dropping a gun, also I think there is a Jerry Miculec (SP ???) video where he says something like "I've been DQ'd 10 times and I'm not proud of any of them". Things happen.

[What does a firing pin block do]

Not trying to thread drift here, but can we assume that the shooter was DQ'd?

DQ'd and embarrassed and hurt. The poor guy got the trifecta.

Hopefully the hurt (knee) part was just a sprain or something.

[What does a firing pin block do]

Why don't we just use airsoft?

It's guns with real bullets, if you feel unsafe buy a chair, a styrofoam cooler and go to the beach.

This is why I don't read Doodie Project .

I'm not sure why trying to understand the pros and cons of a firing pin block, or feeling one way or another about what you learn, would be a bad thing.

[What does a firing pin block do]

Probably 100 people are anxious to type something like "it blocks the firing pin ".

Anyway, what I mean is under what conditions could it theoretically prevent an unintentional discharge?

Was at a match a couple weeks back, one shooter tripped when crossing through a doorway at speed. The guy hit the ground hard enough for it to look scary even if there had not been a gun involved, and the gun ended up a couple feet in front of him with the muzzle pointed at his shoulder (and at the squad assuming a bullet could have some how got past his body). So this got me to wondering if a firing pin block might make things safer in this circumstance. Obviously I do not claim to understand the internals of the gun so if this is a dumb question, mea culpa.

[Weak hand shooting]

Flag your thumb

+1

Put your thumb downwards will give you a much better control.

Can't wait to try this at the range, feels a lot better during dry fire.

[Weak hand shooting]

When you say "aim at he edge of the A zone respective to the hand" You aim at the left perf of the A with the left hand and visa verse for the right? Is that to compensate for the trigger Pull?

"2. Aim at the edge of the A zone respective of which hand you are using"

That's interesting

Strong hand - I aim at target center and my accuracy is good (slow, but good).

Weak (left) hand I have to aim at about the left perforation line and that is usually good enough.

The best two shooters I know personally (one revolver) both aim at center of target regardless. I need to re-watch the Ben Stoeger DVD but I'm pretty sure that he aims at target center, he has other tips on transitioning the gun to weak hand and etc., it is a good watch if you get opportunity.

I think my aiming left with left (weak) hand has to do with my crappy trigger control and a too weak grip.

[The Best USPSA Production Pistol]

I have to agree here. I think what's best is if the shooter picks a gun he/she thinks they shoot well and is reliable and just STICKS WITH IT! I've seen guys who should be classified higher but they just keep changing guns chasing the perfect unicorn, but then there are A, M and GMs running with Glocks. Really, the gun (if it fits you) is less important than practicing with it and getting all those other skills in place.

But, we're gun nuts and we like guns so ...

This is one of those things I wonder about.

I think Rob Leatham won the single stack nationals and the revolver nationals on the same weekend, & there are other examples of folks competing at the very top level with multiple platforms ???

I don't know if it is a great ones versus mere mortals thing, or if perhaps swapping guns a bit is not a very harmful thing.

[The Best USPSA Production Pistol]

Looked into getting a Springfield XD upgraded, barrel-sights-trigger, at the usual places (Springfield custom, Springer precision, etc). Cost gets upwards of $600.00 + the new gun cost fairly quick.

Was a bit shocked because I couldn't find anyone who would tell me what accuracy they would guarantee and none of the folks I talked with even bothered to group test XD's after installing match barrels & etc.. One outfit sounded like they did not even have the facilities (Ransom rest or equivalent) for accuracy testing. Did find one outfit that was willing to provide me with a group test, but they had the courage to tell me that they would charge an additional $100.00 for what I think of as very basic and neccessary quality control that a customer should not have to ask for. My suspicion is that the results must not be something that can be bragged about or else are a bit hit and miss (no pun intended ), although there may be some other reason for not defining what accuracy the customer is paying for and I just can not figure it out.

Got irritated enough to start looking at other guns, and talked with a master class USPSA shooter a bit today (he says it is both the Indian and the arrow) about his CZ , and then started peaking on their website.

Saw this "Ransom Rest testing at 50 yards with Fiocchi 125 JHP (A ZERO bullet) has proved group of less than 3” compared with a factory new gun at about 5.0”. At 25 yards the groups were around 1.2” a one-hole group."

I don't know if the CZ is the best USPSA production pistol, and $1700 for top of the line is absolutely a big chunk of change, but I guess that is what I will buy if I ever take the plunge.

[the secret to recoil control?]

Had an ah-ha moment a week or three back.

A friend ran a video of me shooting and the video showed that my muzzle control was one heck of a lot better than I thought it was, not attempting to say that there is not room for improvement, but I was surprised and happy about what I saw.

Better shooters can comment or correct, but my conclusion was that part of the opportunity is understanding what good muzzle control looks like rather than attempting to achieve zero motion.

[The Best USPSA Production Pistol]

The stock plastic guns should be good enough out of the box accuracy-wise for this sport.

I used to think like that, but it seems like now days you run into the occasional 35 yard shots with some hard cover & tight shots between no-shoots & etc. Agree that you don't need great precision most of the time, but if a production gun will let you feel confident with the really tough shots that is what I want.

[The Best USPSA Production Pistol]

What kind of results are you folks seeing accuracy wise with polymer production guns?

Am thinking about getting a new barrel & similar tweaks made to an XD but kind of hesitant because so far I can't find anyone who tells me anything beyond "$200 for a new match barrel" . I'm assuming that the polymers all have about the same potential, and that there is no big accuracy winner anywhere on the approved gun list, but that may be a bad guess.

[My first DQ last night.]

Yep, remember you are OFF the clock after the last shot, so why rush anything and risk problems?

Same for making ready. Especially then, as the gun will be loaded at this point of holstering.

Shooters often "forget" that we get absolutely NO points for "style" or looking cool in USPSA competition.

Went to the USPSA single stack nationals this year. Totally completely blew a stage and my mind was not in the moment during unload and show clear.

Am in the habit of actually showing the r.o. / s.o. that the gun is clear when they say to show clear and then waiting for "if clear hammer down and holster". When I'm the person who is required to announce "range is safe" I feel obligated to absolutely know a gun was cleared properly so seeing all of the process and maintaining a consistent routine is a thing with me (ammo flippers perhaps do not love me because I still want to see an empty chamber).

I had not removed the magazine from the gun, the r.o. stopped me from dropping the slide and saved me from a DQ and a lot more embarrassment.

Another of my weird little habits is to pivot my hip toward the holster when returning the gun. Makes it more natural for me to look the gun in and I just always figured why point a gun at your foot or leg if you don't need to?

That same RO that I have came to respect and learn from said, "don't worry, there are two kinds of shooters. Those that have been DQ'd and those that will be DQ'd"...

He / She missed "those that have been DQ'd and will eventually be DQ'd again".

[Anyone taken a dremel to their XD mag opening?]

Seems to me that removing some material from the inside rear of the magwell opening on my gun would allow a bit more tolerance when attempting fast reloads.

As I read the USPSA production rules, and arguments about same here, and counter arguments, and the occasional "just read the rules" post, it appears that I can remove material from the rear of the magwell opening and remain USPSA production class legal. I do not see a need to touch the sides or front of the opening.

What would be ideal is to fill the hole between the back of the mag opening and the back of the grip with some sort of epoxy material and then form a maximum length/ best angle slope. I assume this would not be legal however.

In any case, if anyone has made either type of modification, it would be very interesting to know how things worked out.

[Low profile fiber optics]

Due to the bore axis barrel to sight, the front is still gonna be a little tall. Best bet is the Sevigny carry sights from here..

https://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80000EAA-1388518219

"Carry" or competition?

In any case I bought sets for two XD's based on recommendations from a couple master class Glock shooters & I would do it again. You will probably take advantage of Dawson's 1 free exchange guarantee to get the front sight height just the way you prefer.

[another xdm 5.25 catastrophic failure. .40 s&w]

Also the only modification to the gun is a drop in trigger kit from PRP.

Did Springfield say anything about the trigger kit?

Background:

If you buy some of the PRP XD components, the paperwork that comes with them says do not dry fire (I do not have a list of which components this applies to).

If you call PRP and ask WTF about no dry fire with a competition gun they will say something like "it is ok to dry fire some but not a lot".

I sent an XD into Springfield with PRP components in it (pretty much maxed out on their stuff) for a match barrel installation. Springfield said it would not pass their safety tests and they would not send it back to me in its current condition, they were nice & dropped a stock sear & etc back in for free so they could return the gun.

I called PRP again and asked WTF about safety tests because I had attempted to be very thorough and to follow their installation instructions to the letter, they mentioned a "pencil test / eraser test" that they do on installation but do not mention in their instructions. As I recall it was to drop a light object down in the barrel and with the gun facing upward trip the sear through the hole at the back of the slide without pulling the trigger. If the eraser pops up then your gun failed the test.

So anyway, when I read the original post that stuff came to mind.

(And I know that I will now be raped and left for the flies as I mentioned a diy modification that had a safety issue).

[Any tips on remembering what target you've shot?]

Me too. Someone said to walk around the back side of the stage to make sure you don't miss anything, and it seemed to help.

I like that. Thank you!

[Any tips on remembering what target you've shot?]

It is a problem for me, so I cheat .

Get there an hour early & make a plan for each stage. You may not remember your plan by the time you get to shoot that stage, but you will be confident that there is a good plan & you will likely remember enough to jump start the process.

I need to be thinking about my shooting 2 shooters ahead. I try to be one of the best helpers on my squad, but I'm selfish about the 2 shooters ahead thing. Folks are understanding if you feel you need to let them know what the deal is.

As others have noted, it does seem to be getting easier.

What I really hate is when you execute your plan just the way you wanted to & then learn that you missed a target when making your plan. Shouldn't ever happen, but I did it twice last year.