PatJones
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Posts posted by PatJones
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I feel the skill required to shoot a higher caliber revolver is valuable and should be recognized.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
How would you guys feel about some form of power factor recognition in ICORE? There's a good number of 625s out there, but I'm not seeing them at ICORE matches.
I propose major power factor for 6 shot guns only, and only in Limited or maybe just L6. Power factor set the same as USPSA major. Scoring penalties would be reduced by a half second for hits on the target that are outside of the A zone. Misses and penalty targets stay the same.
If this were to become a thing, I'd probably switch to the 625 full time in ICORE.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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T-dad? I graduated in 2010. You taking NRA classes or you going full time?
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
I've run tens of thousands of federals thru my 550 with no problems.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
Are you left handed?
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
One thing I've noticed when practicing reloads with moon's loaded with dummy rounds , is that you need to practice with some type of padding on the floor for the moons to fall onto, as they do get damaged when dropping on a hard floor and don't work good afterwards.
I've gotten away from using dummy rounds and just use over sized brass, so I can practice ejecting how it happens at a match(ejecting empty brass) and the over sized brass is easy to load back into the cylinder and won't get banged up as much when hitting the floor.
Otherwise, try not to miss and you won't need to reload as much !!!![emoji106]
SJC
I only drop a moonclip a few times a practice session to make sure I'm being honest about ejecting them. You'll do a lot more reloads in practice if you're not bending over to pick them up.
It is hard on moonclips. I use ones that someone stepped on and straighten them out best I can. I never use them for live fire after dry firing, but your bent up old dry fire moons are the most important ones you own. It is useful to have one loaded with fired brass for ejecting.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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Watch this. The second half is in slow-mo
Yes it's Jerry, but look at the details. Look how fast the revolver is pulled into the body. Note how he breaks at the waist so he can get the gun more vertical. The moonclip is waiting as soon as the revolver is pointed down.
You can't put the moonclip into the cylinder while you're holding onto it, your finger tips are in the way. Watch how Jerry drops the moonclip and moves his hand to the grip before it has finished going into the cylinder.
You need to work on things one at a time. For you the lowest hanging fruit is hand speed. Moving from the shooting position to your waist there is no reason to not move your hands faster, especially your right hand. You should already have the moonclip in your hand when the gun gets to your waist.
You have video set up this is good. Watch Jerry and then look at yourself reload. Pick out one thing that looks different, use a 30k foot view. Practice that until it looks better then work on something else.
I watched that video last year and saw Jerry move his hand before the moon dropped into the cylinder. I dry fired for an hour that night on just that. It was worth 2 tenths on my reload. You have a better than a second to shave, good news is most of that is the easy stuff.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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Can you describe the difference in "feel" while shooting at those 3 speeds?I would say its the hardest thing we do,
In my experience speed and accuracy are pretty separate right up to a breaking point where the accuracy drops off almost instantly.
As an example the other day I was doing some work at 10yd on B8 targets, running 10 shot strings (9mm 1911) the difference in hits between a 9 second run and a 7.5 second run was nothing, but the difference between a 7.5 second run and a 7 second run was dramatic.
The challenge in the low cap minor divisions is to find that breaking point and stay just on the good side of it for every target.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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It's a difficult balance isn't it? If the fear of dropping a C causes you to split even .05 slower, that's 1.6 seconds over a 32 rounds field course.IME, the balance shifts away from speed and way over to points with the locap minor divisions. When one C costs nearly half a second at 5 HF, transitions need to be spot-on to the center of the A and not just slamming the gun over to somewhere in the A-C region. Save the C's for when they are unavoidable if you can.
It's somewhat less of a thing for the hicap minor shooters because there's usually enough more options that the HF bumps up a bit.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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11 hours ago, ysrracer said:
I'm thinking of moving to Colorado too, California sucks
I had a great time in California at the Western States in February, but we do have a crazy number of matches in Colorado. Some divisions see more activity, but the Eastern Colorado section is lucky to have Masters and GMs in every division.
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14 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:
Have you noticed a decline in locap friendliness with the gain in carry optics and PCC shooters? ... Either there are no options (everyone in Prod or SS has to reload in the exact same spots, thereby making us shoot the stage the same way.)...Or all of the options suck (multiple flatfooted reloads.)...
I think there's really only one fastest plan on any stage, it's very rare that I choose do something different than the Limited guys regardless of gun I'm shooting. The fastest plan is still the fastest plan. Maybe lo-cap shoots one target from a different location. I'll take a standing reload with a smile if it cleans up the rest of the stage for me. What's your reload time? It's about a second and a half to exit a position and another second and a half to settle into a new one. If enough targets are available, standing reloads can be faster.
8 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:this has been one of my big improvements in revo the last season, the reload is the time limiter in most movement so shoot flat footed and reload while moving at the pace that lets you shoot as soon as you get where your going. shooting into or out of a position tends to means you are dropping points you don't need to and very rarely gaining any time.
In all divisions, it makes no sense to exit a position while shooting if the reload is a going to be crowded by the distance you have to move into the next position. The math is a bit different with a Revo vs a bottom feeder but it applies to everyone.
7 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:Beyond the Shooting differences between Lo-Hi cap divisions, the bigger donation in performance Lo-Cap divisions produce is how much the reloading gun handling throughout the whole stage dramatically impacts movement aggression. Lo-Cap shooters have a really hard time learning how to truly haul ass between shooting positions. Their ability to haul ass between shooting positions is usually limited to the aggressiveness of their gun handling. If you can't finish an aggressive reload within a step of leaving the shooting position WHILE hauling ass exiting the position then you are doing it wrong. If you are donating several seconds of time on each field course simply because you are not hauling ass between positions, it really doesn't matter how fast or slow you are shooting.
When I am teaching students about movement aggression I challenge them to run between two positions as aggressively as they can without any gun handling involved. Simply, haul the mail as aggressively as you can from one position to the next. That movement will take a certain mount of time. Use that time as a Par time while incorporating gun handling tasks to see if or how much the gun handling tasks are impacting your movement time.
5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:I agree, that was my point behind making your reload the par time, with a revo almost all position changes involve a reload and learning to move aggressively without the reload falling apart is very important. Its very easy to move 8 feet side to side during a 3 second reload its much harder to move 16 feet or to go in a odd direction or around an obstacle. Basically with a revo its focus on the reload and learn to move in the time allowed, vs autos where you move as fast as possible and learn to do the gun handling in the time allowed.
Shooting a higher capacity division, it certainly exposes your weaknesses in movement aggression sooner. Maybe a Limited gun pairs better with a lo-cap than another lo-cap does.
I've been working on this in practice. I build a small stage and after shooting it a few times I begin to work sections of it without reloads. I don't shoot limited, but I try to pretend I'm shooting a limited gun in practice. Maybe I only engage the last target at a position and the first two at the next while I shoot a piece of steel on the way. Production guns make it much easier to do this, you can load them to capacity. This form of practice is where I say the reload costs me about .2 with an auto and .5 with a revolver when I move.
I've been focusing on having the gun up up, extended and ready to shoot as soon as possible. The foot speed needs to match this, but I'm trying to have the gun up and extended before I completely clear the vision barrier. I'm letting the reload and extension drive the foot speed on the movements. I know how long it takes to reload and extend the gun, the job of my feet is having targets available when the sights settle. Charlie would be the judge on this, but I hope I'm losing the "revolver shuffle."
On short movements, maybe 5 feet or less, I'm limited by my reload but I see a lot of low cap shooters do what Charlie describes. I definitely fit that description in the past and I'm working on it. To be fair, there are shorter than typical movements where prioritizing the reload over the movement gets the gun up and ready to shoot sooner. As I work on it I am finding and more more places where I can pop at least one or two hard steps after I seat a mag or drop a moon clip in. I think it's adding up. With the revolver, I'm losing majors on points instead of time now.
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As a heads up I've written up a post with some revolver-specific content and posted it in the USPSA/IPSC forum.
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Pat Jones
Firestone, CO
USPSA #A79592
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There hasn't been as much content on here lately as there used to be, so I thought I'd do my part. What follows is largely an email I sent to a friend over the winter discussing my thoughts and current experiences in shooting.
I am a revolver shooter. Searching for folks to compete against, I also spend time shooting Single Stack and in years past, Production. I typically pick major matches that I want to shoot with the revolver and dedicate a block of time during the year to spend with the round gun. What I experienced this winter in coming back to revolver was interesting to me.
When you have extra ammunition during a stage you can shoot much more aggressively. If you're calling your shots and you see a mistake, you can learn to instantly make the shot up. Shooting revolver, for years I thought was calling my shots, but I was not. Calling the shot happens after the shot breaks. I knew where each shot was going because I spent a lot of time before the shot broke shooting far too carefully.
As you all know, you can haul balls shooting and -usually- get away with it. This is where the shot calling feedback loop comes in. You shoot fast, you almost always hit and you -always- know where the shot went. You shoot, observe, then react to what you saw. This is very different than what I have to do to shoot -completely- clean with with a revolver, I think shot calling is a more difficult skill to master. It can be faster to makeup the occasional miss than it is to guarantee the shot before it leaves the barrel. I've been working hard to stay in this feedback loop with my single stack, but I only have one makeup shot in many positions. The pace of my shooting is very different when I have that extra round up the pipe.
Coming back to the 8 shot revolver, we almost never have extra ammo so I have to know exactly where the shot is going before the it breaks. I can still call the shot and make it up, but that's a 2 second reload in most cases. I'm aiming more and carefully squeezing the trigger, I can't often afford to react to what I see after the shot breaks. I'm out of the shot calling feedback loop I'm trying to build. Shooting in "revolver mode" is making me feel like the world's best D class shooter. Time plus scoring in ICORE only magnifies this feeling.
For years I was trying to avoid an extra reload, but that math is not always beneficial. On a very elementary level, if the stage naturally breaks down so that you’re not shooting to capacity in every position don’t fight it. I know from practice that a single stack reload costs me about 2 tenths when reloading on the move. If I get to the next position with extra ammo, I can shoot faster with less risk. If I shoot my splits .05 faster, after 4 shots the reload was a net gain. If I’m a tenth faster, it only takes 2 shots to “pay” for the reload. The math changes with a revolver. My reload costs me a half second on the move, but going one for one on difficult targets costs a fair bit of time. If I have makeup shots available for an array, I can exit “revolver mode” and return to calling my shots after they break.
The next part is something I’m struggling with when shooting revolver. I can go one for one on the targets and sometimes you need to, but I think I’m shooting too slowly when I do this. I can go faster, but I risk a standing reload. I’m starting to think that taking a standing reload or two over the course of a major match might be OK if, and only if, I can learn to slow down less when I’m required to shoot to capacity.
It has been my experience that shooting other divisions can help improve your shooting, but only if you spend large blocks of time with each firearm. In my case, there is not as much information out there about revolvers as there is with the more mainstream divisions. Things I learn shooting one firearm can be applied to the others. Differing firearms can change the shooting experience in ways that were not obvious to me when I started this sport. A friend recently told me that a limited gun has an “on switch” whereas the single stack has "accelerator pedal." Given this winter’s observations, his words have stuck in my mind.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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Most stages, you'll start loaded and reload 3 times. If mags #4, 5 &6 are further back to optimize 1-3 that's a trade-off I'll make all day.They are straight up and down to save space to get more mags on the belt. Production shooters go thru a lot of mags. You can angle them as said, but economy of motion is your friend.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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It gets us back to where things used to be. There was a time when is was 2" from the inside of the inner belt to any part of the gun. It was then changed to be 2" to the grip.
This change is probably closer to where I ran things when it was 2" to the cylinder. I won't be out at the limit, but it'll be nice to have a little more clearance to my winter layers.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
Finished this build during the beerflu - managed to get in a test fire session with it before quarantine but haven't shot it in a match yet. It's a total mutt but shoots really well.
- RIA Tact II frame (Para ramp cut)
- Para "Black Ops" slide, match barrel, and LPA sights
- Brazos Ignition Kit
- Wilson safeties
- Mix of Fusion and Klonimus small parts
- Klonimus grips and magwell
The trigger was breaking at sub-2.5 lbs when I first put it together. That was a little light for me so I swapped the Brazos sear spring for a Wolff and re-bent it a little; it's now just north of 3 lbs and feels a lot better.
Nice, so you gonna play in singlestack division with me?
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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Yes. I occasionally hit 1.95 with the 625. My 627 is probably closer to 2.3, but that's with full length special brass.
Two seconds from last shot, reload, next shot?
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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I do everything that the bottom feeders practice; movement, position entry & exit. Target transitions probably get you the biggest time gain. Reloads should be practiced in dry fire, 2 seconds is a reasonable time.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
That's the internal lock
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
Revolver is a very lightly attended division in most places. If your closest competitor is 10% away from you, it doesn't matter what you shoot. Just shoot what you enjoy, and whatever you're motivated to practice with.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
I dunno, I can beat all of the local singlestack Shooters, save one, with my 625 and I can't beat him with my 1911.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592 -
Isn't this why Smith & Wesson cuts the Chambers a little deep on the cylinders so they don't headspace without moonclips?The only revolvers I ever had a problem with were ones chambered for semi auto calibers. The end of the chamber for those has a square shoulder that catches lead, carbon, powder, etc. in the sharp corner. After shooting for a while, it can build up enough to keep the rounds from going in all the way. The revo has multiple rounds all fed in by gravity, so it doesn't take much to hang it up. A semi auto has one round being shoved in by a (relatively) heavy spring loaded slide. It takes a lot more for that to not seat. The rimmed chambers all have a tapered funnel going from the case size (chamber) to the bullet size (throat), which allows most of the crud in front of the case mouth to just go out the barrel.
My solution for the 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, etc., is to make the same tapered funnel transition in those cylinders, as well. Then you can run them all day the same as the rimmed calibers, and they drop all the way in every time.
I can go multiple matches with me 625 & 627 without cleaning, and I'm not running particularly clean powders.
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
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An negligent discharge into a berm is not a DQ unless you're reloading or moving. Been that way since I've been an RO.
That sounds different then this situation. Your shooter hit a target, that sounds like a false start. This guy sent a random shot into the berm not at a target is how I read the OP. I'm picturing it as no question he was not shooting at a target but did at least keep it in the range. Take USPSA rules out of it for a second and I think everyone would agree that this is unsafe gun handling. USPSA has a rule for unsafe gun handling but apparently that only applies if you don't fire the gun. Any shots fired are considered safe gun handling.
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Dunno. Are they answering phones at corporate?
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ICORE major scoring
in ICORE Rules and Membership Information
Posted
ICORE has set the minimum power factor below USPSA minor in recognition that many factory 38 special loads don't make minor. I understood this was so a competitor would not be _required_ to handload.
Factory 45 makes well over 180 power factor. It's ok to require these shooters to handload?
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Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592