Chuck D

I'm aware Open 10 is a NY Reality....and I feel for people who have thousands of dollars invested in Open guns and magazines that are now in the same boat as the Limited Division guys/gals here. Fact is....unless L10 is a financial drain on the organization, of which I don't think it is but IF it is please enlighten me, it's not a "wasted" division by ANY far stretch of the imagination. It has become the primary manner in which the incessant "pissing and moaning" from the "nuke L10 crowd" communicates it's displeasure with the creation of a division for members in capacity restricted States. Open 10 will eventually become a necessity as well, believe it or not. MOST people I speak to who align themselves with "rolling L10 into Limited as a category) are the same folks who purchase standard capacity magazines and "block" them with a rivet so they only accept 10 rounds and remove the block when they compete in "free America." That "remedy" isn't shared with ALL the membership. There exists a division in USPSA in which the "blocked with a rivet" remedy isn't required. It's a division that's established, self supporting, and bothers no one. Leave it be. USPSA made a commitment to the membership in capacity restricted States with the creation of L10. They should honor their commitment.

I shoot L10 when I shoot USPSA. I live in NY State....I have NO choice. With that said...I supported L10 from the onset, even when we in the Peoples Republic could own "grandfathered" magazines. I have taken the "L10 category" position in the hope people who "carp" on about it being a "political" division or a "place to hide" from REAL shooters and REAL competition would once the division has been relegated to "category" status simply dry up and blow away. To this day I have no idea how having a restricted capacity division for members in capacity restricted States to compete on a national level harms the sport in any way. It smacks of people "screwing with members in capacity restricted States because they can." In my heart of hearts...leave SS, L10, and Production as they are. All 3 hurt no one in any way shape or form. As far as "awards distribution and L2 and L3 matches" is concerned, my belief is that they'd issue a HOA L10 Division award and ignore the rest as the finances gained (regardless of dollar amount) will be "redistributed" to the REAL competitors in Limited Division. Pardon the sarcasm...but this issue has been beaten to death since the divisions inception. It gets really old really quick having to rehash it year after year.

Ditto for making L10 a category of Limited and leaving SS and Production alone.

Does anyone use Safariland single mag pouches ? If so which models are IDPA legal ? Thanks....

There is more than a few "matters in need of correction" @ USPSA.... Disenfranchising a segment of their membership based on their shooting skill and competency isn't one of 'em.

The check was written (against my better judgment) for a 2016 "renewal." After being told about this change and reading this thread, I'm glad I didn't waste a stamp. This change has only 1 purpose...to slow down the better shooters so the "less than competent" shooters in the speed department aren't "outclassed" as badly as they already are. IDPA should just come out and say that M's and DM's are no longer welcomed and once you reach that level you are required to "get lost." When Larry Vickers takes to FB and trumpets this decision...that should tell you ALL you need to know.

No...the 1k is for the blaster and 5-6 extra mags. I have the rig (Safariland) and all the other necessities. I'm looking for and out of the box platform to start with and I know they'll be changes that are necessities. I have additional funds available if I break the budget by a 2k SS blaster isn't going to happen.

I have 1k to purchase a SS Division blaster and 5-6 extra magazines. I you were in my shoes, what would you buy and why. Brand, caliber, add-on parts, etc.... Fire away.... Thanks....

Red dots on carry guns is in our future. Immediate future I'd dare say. Shooting organizations that make room for them are ahead of the learning curve. USPSA has Open Division so no need for Optics Production Division is necessary at this time. IDPA is a different story altogether....

Well said. Good for him Bad sign when IDPA clubs don't want to hold IDPA matches. That it is...":outlaw" defensive pistol matches siphon off shooters, workers, club locations, and of course capital. If the customer base isn't happy....success certainly will not follow even the best of efforts. The World Shoot location is a prime example.

No one needs to "stow it for a while...." Here it is in a nutshell Brooke. Like an idea, contribute. Don't like an idea, offer an alternative view. Someone gets under your skin...avoid 'em but one thing is for certain, those of us who "ad nauseum" stated the FFR rule was a divisive issue were proven correct in an undeniable fashion. The "go along to get along" crowd needs to understand that and come to grips with it. IDPA corrected a problem and ADMITTED they made a mistake which is a FAR CRY from prior policy. It's a step in the right direction and I not only recognize the effort but I applaud it as well. I hope this marks a turning point for ALL parties what have a vested interest in IDPA's growth and success.

I've been a "vocal" critic of IDPA's leadership since the new rulebook. Having stated the obvious, I give them credit for not only reversing that rule but openly admitting it was a mistake to implement it in the first place. Hopefully they've adopted a new approach to membership input. If they have...it would be a positive step in repairing the relationship between H.Q. and those of us who left and would like to return.

Lifted from the IDPA Forum: "To our GADPA Family, This purpose of this message is to, hopefully, clear up some of the confusion around the board of director’s decision from last Monday night. We will not be going into the details of who did what to whom. We know that this will not stop all of the questions that everyone will be asking about our announcement but we hope that this will help you to understand our position. The 2014 IDPA Georgia State Championship was a lot of work and it was well received by the competitors. However, for those of us involved in the administration side of the match, it just wasn’t fun having to deal with the IDPA bureaucracy. The BOD spent hundreds of hours setting up this match. Only those who selflessly donate their time know the hundreds of details that go into putting on a match of this size and quality. It took years to refine the details in order to make the match run as smoothly as possible. It wasn’t perfect and it never will be, but were it not for the GADPA volunteers, there would be no matches at all. IDPA HQ has for many years made decisions and rules that fall beyond our grasp. Without going into any specifics, their actions have destroyed our confidence in the organization. Specifics will just lead to a shouting contest and solve nothing. As a result of this loss of confidence, the BOD has decided to no longer run IDPA governed matches. GADPA is a not-for-profit organization and all of the work that is put into the shooting sports is for fun. When the fun is gone, the life blood of the organization dies. GADPA has grown from one outdoor match with an average attendance of 36 shooters to 10 indoor matches and an average outdoor match attendance of approximately 100. To put it succinctly, we love the defensive pistol shooting sports! The BOD made the choice to walk away from IDPA because of the headaches associated with dealing with IDPA leadership. We have no ill will towards IDPA and think that it a good sport for the people that enjoy it, but for GADPA, it is no longer the direction that we would like to pursue. Many other clubs in the southeast and around the country have made the same decision. With 300 members, GADPA is probably the biggest club to make this move and for this reason the decision has stirred quite a bit of controversy. That was not our goal. We pride ourselves in the comradely that has developed and consider our members family. This decision may not sit well with all of our GADPA shooters and it was not our intent to upset you. However, GADPA is completely comprised of volunteers and is structured as a not for profit organization. Everyone within GADPA is allowed to volunteer their time as they see fit. The BOD has chosen to no longer VOLUNTEER our time toward IDPA. GADPA will continue to hold defensive pistol shooting matches. We will adopt a set of rules and the members will have an opportunity to provide feedback. This will take some time, but we will not do it without GADPA member input. We will continue to be a defensive pistol shooting sport and have no plans to join USPSA. In the interim, GADPA matches will be run using current IDPA rules, subject to the MD's discretion as to stage design and course of fire. This will afford the MD the flexibility to adjust the course of fire to enhance the match without fear of IDPA HQ criticism. For example, the MD may add more than the authorized number of non-threats, have stages that require strong hand shooting at longer distances or require support hand shooting on the move, and similar adjustments that are not allowed under the current rules, but can enhance the match and the participant's shooting skills. We will encourage MDs to avoid courses of fire that result in the shooter forming bad habits should they wish to compete in other official IDPA matches, but we won't require that stages be thrown out if a competitor objects. We recognize GADPA's roots and that there are many who will still be competing in that arena. As far as the indoor matches are concerned, we hope they stay with GADPA, but each match will be free to decide what direction they wish to take. If the MD(s), shooters, and range management wish to form their own IDPA club and join the national organization, they are free to do so. We will not stand in the way. It is our hope that both organizations can coexist without animosity. Lastly, the BOD recognizes who our customers are -- you the shooter. You got involved in competitive shooting because you enjoyed both the people and the matches we run. That is not going to change! Sincerely, GADPA Board of Directors"

I feel badly for the legitimate shooters affected by this club. (a club that obviously thought they were above the rules!)Do they get their match fee refunded, since they signed up for an "advertised" Tier 4 match and expected Nationals points accordingly? Will the order of finish be corrected to eliminate those shooters who were not qualified for this match? (either through invalid classifications or lapsed membership) This could affect awards and match bumps. ....all valid points. I do wonder though if you'd advocate some of the same solutions when a competitor is assessed penalties when an S.O. makes a "subjective" call that adversely effects their score ? The rules that were broken by this club were not in any way "subjective" or in a gray area. They were clear, published rules AND directives from HQ. Apples and oranges there, Chuck. Now IF a shooter chooses to go to arbitration and is successful in getting a blatant incorrect call (by an SO or an MD) overturned, then the answer is yes. So...if a shooter finds illegal stages at the Carolina Cup or the Indoor Nationals for example then should IDPA step in and correct the matter ? Should the competitor be allowed the option of receiving a refund for the entry fee ? Should the illegal stages be tossed and the results recalculated ? If the "nothing in a grey area" criteria is accepted as being corrrect is utilized and for the sake of discussion lets agree that you're assessment is correct (I disagree but that's set aside for now)...shouldn't EVERY match of championship status be held to the same standard ? Again...am I being asked to believe that there are NO other championship status matches that violate some of the very same "cut and dry" rules the Georgia club obviously did ? Could this be an example of "they did it why can't we?"

I feel badly for the legitimate shooters affected by this club. (a club that obviously thought they were above the rules!)Do they get their match fee refunded, since they signed up for an "advertised" Tier 4 match and expected Nationals points accordingly? Will the order of finish be corrected to eliminate those shooters who were not qualified for this match? (either through invalid classifications or lapsed membership) This could affect awards and match bumps. ....all valid points. I do wonder though if you'd advocate some of the same solutions when a competitor is assessed penalties when an S.O. makes a "subjective" call that adversely effects their score ?

I've competed in my share of local, State, and Regional matches that had illegal stages, violations of the rulebook (esecially the "airgunning rule) and allowed non-members, members whose membership had lapsed, and pending memberships to compete (with the sole,exception of Regional tournaments). There is even an IDPA sanctioned club in Central NY that hosts "outlaw" matches using IDPA targets and IDPA rules and OVERSEEN by IDPA S.O."s so do us all a favor and save the semantics. You talk about acting rational and professional then you throw out the "little .boys in Atlanta" comment with tremendous ease negating any viable point you wish to make. Again...semantics. If the club violated the rulebook...then they should have corrected the violations. If they chose to leave IDPA over it that's their option but to say IDPA rules are not violated by other clubs at the club match to championship level is a BIG stretch.

So...am I to believe that there are NO matches, regardless of what "Tier" they are that are not run under or subject to "local rules and policies?" ...and am I also to believe that there exists NO matches regardless of "Tier" that allow non-members or members with lapse memberships to compete ?

OK Bill.... I sure hope you are sufficiently compensated for your support . By the way, the term "basic premise" was the terminology I used. There are expressed meanings and implied meanings. Joyce expressed herself in one fashion but those that saw through the smoke and mirror show KNOW what she implied and now her efforts and arrogance is coming home to roost as it should.

"If you don't like the way things are run here...get out" is the basic premise of her statement. Many people did just that which is living proof you should be careful what you wish for. The rule book is SO unpopular that along comes ANOTHER comment period that is designed to gauge the depth of the dissatisfaction. Obvious signs that something is "amiss" regardless of the fact that you refuse to at the very least recognize the obvious. I won't bother getting into the "procedural penalty festival" most matches have become due to the "subjectivity" of a rulebook that encourages SO's to "apply" the rules as they see fit versus clear application of the written rule. This in and of itself is designed to "run off" the "gamer" who is the most likely candidate for receiving unearned procedural penalties for pushing stage creativity to it's limits. I'm not "chastising" you...I'm calling you out on your never ending willingness to ignore the obvious and do so in a public forum where comments and dissention is to be expected. I am more than willing to stand by every single statement and prediction I've made about the arrogance and incompetency expressed by H.Q. If you want to defend their actions...you become subject to the criticisms that go along with supporting what is obviously wrong. Where on earth would someone running a successful business tell its customer base that if they disagree with the manner in which the product they PAY for and VOLUNTEER their time and labor to support is administered to feel free to take their time, effort, and money elsewhere ? Would YOU purchase products or services from that company after being told in so many words you're not welcomed there anymore ? You're no victim. You chose to support their policies. I'm not asking you to quit. I'm asking you to take a good hard look at what's been done, run a "morality check" and then with all honesty say you can support IDPA's position.

Bill obviously you don't remember the "feel free to leave" comments made by Joyce Wilson or most likely you CHOOSE not to remember. If that doesn't indicate being "driven out of the sport" then I don't know what does... By the way....who is "we?" You (to your credit) are one of a very few that back IDPA's play at every opportunity.

You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.... You constantly support IDPA's approach to rules creation and enforcement and you defend rules that simply can not be defended from a common sense perspective BUT when given DIRECT examples of bias, inconsistencies, and a complete lack of common sense i.e. the gamer attire vs. a simple soft cell knee pad worn with shorts you SUDDENLY aren't sure of the "point of my question." What am I most likely to run into "on the street"....someone with a logo plastered jersey or someone wearing a soft knee pad for support ? Lets take it one step further,,,,instead of reloading and moving BEHIND COVER" lets make people stand static while a potential threat is supposedly shooting back at us. Fact is....IDPA eliminated movement behind cover while reloading because "gamers" could do it and do it well ...just like those USPSA/IPSC guys do and we certainly didn't want that now did we... No shooting sport rulebook is as convoluted as IDPA's because H.Q. is hell bent on pretending to be what it is not, could never be, and its principles run contrary to the needs of the organization especially membership retention.

"If IDPA is training for an actual gunfight which is exactly what Joyce and the Tiger Teams want all to buy into...when was the last time you heard of or saw on the evening news a firearms owner who was engaged in a "dynamic critical incident" wearing their logo plastered fishing vest and sponsor logo laden billboard shooting jersey ?" Asked Bill....but never answered so let me answer it for you. The sponsor plastered shirt offers NO competitive advantage other than offer free advertisement for companies that sell IDPA legal products and shower IDPA with money through match sponsorship i.e. S&W, Comp-Tac, Safariland, ect... If a soft cell knee pad manufacturer sponsored the Nationals or a Regional Championship and provided funding to H.Q. you could bet your you know what soft cell knee pads would not only be legal but you'd find them on prize tables by the gross. Vests DO offer a competitive advantage...Armadillo Custom Vests is a classic example of equipment that skirts the rules and almost NEVER is used by the average CCW but is welcomed with open arms by IDPA because they BOUGHT their way into the sport. It all goes back to the hypocritical manner in which the way the rules are crafted and enforced and THAT'S what people have been carping about all along.

Yes Bill...that's how I define active. I might add that a number of people USED to care and probably still do care but they are fully aware that anything they suggest will be either discounted or flat out ignored by IDPA and then told to pound salt. The "gamer" thing is where IDPA truly shows its hypocrisy. I noticed that to this day there is NO shortage of "sponsored logo" custom shooting jerseys being worn by IDPA participants regardless of the fact that less than 10% of those wearing these billboards actually receive ANY factory sponsorship what-so-ever. So...I guess that the "gamer" perspective that equates to shooting better scores through careful and efficient stage manipulation is a bad thing in IDPA but looking like a billboard for firearms and accessories manufacturers and wearing a logo plastered fishing vest is A.O.K. with IDPA ? I guess those won't get you "killed on the street" but wearing a soft knee pad with shorts is a big NO-NO still. If IDPA is training for an actual gunfight which is exactly what Joyce and the Tiger Teams want all to buy into...when was the last time you heard of or saw on the evening news a firearms owner who was engaged in a "dynamic critical incident" wearing their logo plastered fishing vest and sponsor logo laden billboard shooting jersey ?

The number of suggestions is not only adequate but in my experience represents the core beliefs of the ACTIVE membership and by ACTIVE I mean those that care enough to comment and those that are hoping IDPA ACTIALLY pays attention this time around. Most of the members I speak to don't bother with "suggestion polls" because they believe in the end that IDPA's minds are already made up especially with the FFR rule. In a game that discourages the "gamer" from playing. The rules are written by Marksman classified shooters and so called Tactical Instructors who are VERY set in their ways. It took longer than I expected for someone to enter this thread, ignore the obvious, and support IDPA's position. Fact is IDPA and the Tiger Teams messed up an already workable set of rules and the volume of shooters who left the organization over it and Joyce's arrogance pertaining to the "leave if you don't like it" comments have adversely effected the "bottom line." There is NO hiding this fact....it's as plain as day. ...and it was predicted by MANY who saw it coming from a mile away.