[Choosing first division for 3-gun]

I hope to attend at least two other matches before I go to Texas Multigun in April. Unless I decide to drop big money on guns I don't have to shoot WW2 Division, I have a tough choice to make.

I've never shot a 3-gun match before. My background is pistols with a small amount of trap shooting. Rifle time before 2011 was essentially nil.

As a new 42-year old male shooter with novice rifle skills, should I be looking more toward Limited or Tactical (as the Texas match calls it). Tactical for the April match is what many would call Tactical Optics.

I have no rifle optic now. Looks like I will need to buy either a nice 1x or a 1-4-ish scope for Limited or Tactical, respectively. For someone just starting like me, what would you recommend.

Thanks,

Mike

PS - I'm rough with irons since I have no real experience. Not terrible, just inconsistent and lacking confidence.

[Jerry Miculek 930 shotgun]

That is the first the we did was stick our fingers in there. The lifter was fine, my big fat thumb went in and out no problem.

Sweet. Thanks for the hands-on report.

[Jerry Miculek 930 shotgun]

I'm a total novice, so I look forward to more experienced comments on the lifter. Very interesting package overall. Thank you for linking to that.

[remington versa max]

price ?

MSRP in the latest online version of the Remington 2012 Catalog on page 122 (http://www.thedigitaleditiononline.com/publication/?i=90918) is $1399. I wonder what the average selling price will be at first delivery? We will see.

[TEXAS MULTIGUN 2012]

My check hasn't been cashed in almost four weeks. I'm assuming there are still openings.

Looking forward to meeting some of you there.

[CZ-USA Model 712 Utility]

Michael1778,

I would recommend not going with the magnetic kind just because your likely to lose it during matches when you bump it here or there. Hivis makes the competition sight. It holds a lot of light and is very easy to see. It does require taking the brass bead off but is very easy to install. Just like with anything gun wise as long as you apply even pressure the bead comes off very easy.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31lkJs1QI2L._SS500_.jpg

Thank you, Ryan.

I've come to that conclusion as well. I'll swap out the front bead for a better sight fit; likely that one you mentioned.

-- Mike

[CZ-USA Model 712 Utility]

Thank you. I'll try to be careful when the time comes. We will see what happens....

[CZ-USA Model 712 Utility]

Question to the group:

Is the front bead removable? I'm considering replacing it instead of using the Hiviz Birdbuster magnetic attach fiber optic replacement. Thank you.

Comments:

I would love a properly made bolt handle to go on this.

Dremel purchased, need to find time to open up the end of the magazine tube.

[CZ 712 issue]

After posting this I took the gun apart and took a bore brush with a patch and some polishing compound to it. I shot it with some of Federal loads and it worked fine. But I can't figure out why it shot them before and then had a issue. Now it's fine again. Maybe just a dirty chamber. The federal cases are a smooth case while the others that I shot were ribbed not sure if that made a difference.

Schultz

As a new CZ 712 Utility owner, I appreciate you starting another thread about your issue. I encountered a similar buckshot problem; even with Winchester Military surplus 00 buckshot rounds. I will pay close attention to the chamber along with the general lubrication state of the weapon when I break it down again.

Thank you.

[Salient M2 or no?]

I haven't seen anything recently on the M2 by Salient. Most of the stuff posted on this site is about a year old. I have tried to contact them and only got an answering machine, and their website is down. Is their company having problems? Should I go with something else? I was all set to purchase one but now I'm not so sure? From the posts on this site it sounds like they make a nice M2.

Keep in mind, I don't own a Benelli M2. And also that I'm very new to this game.....VERY new. But, if I were in the market for a Benelli M2 all tricked out, I'd look at Benny Hill to do it. He will be Benelli's manufacturing partner on their competition guns they will market. That is my understanding from a recent post by him.

His customers have very high praise for him and his work. Add Benelli's partnership with him and I think you have a clear winner.

[AR vibration question]

The noise is coming from the buffer spring as it compresses and expands back as the bolt closes. Like they said above, the JP spring will reduce it, and if you use a little white lithium on the JP spring it will be gone.

JP spring, white lithium....noted for future reference!

To clarify:

Noise isn't the issue. It's not an acoustical thing. It's a bulk mechanical observation. I see and feel the whole rifle move. Come to think of it, I hear the buffer spring less compared to before. Yeah, now that you mention it, I wasn't aware of the buffer spring noise this session like I was the first time. And I was expecting to hear it. Surely, it was still present to some extent, but the bulk rifle vibration captured my attention in this range session.

Anyway, I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the responses! I'll do a deeper cleaning and lube work on the rifle today to make sure I get the buffer tube lubricated properly. It's great to learn from more experienced people in this fantastic forum!

Thanks for guiding the FNG.

[CZ-USA Model 712 Utility]

It's all about perception.

Being a pistol guy with no shotgun time for over 18 years, a 12 gauge of any variety is a more robust recoiling device than what I've been shooting.

I appreciate you recounting your experiences with buckshot. I wasn't expecting that when it happened.

Bird shot isn't allowed at my indoor range. Too many bozos have caused too much damage. Actually, they changed the range rules to slugs only, recently. But one of the staff said "you aren't an idiot so you can use buckshot." I'm a tactical pistol student of the co-owner, so that must mean something to them.

I could be shouldering the weapon wrong too. It's quite possible given my lack of shotgun experience. I'm fairly bony in the shoulder area so I need to pick my "spot" carefully.

I'm really an amateur pistol guy moving to 3 gun. I'll be scheduling some one-on-one training time with the co-owner. He was a police firearms instructor and SWAT member for many years. He should be able to straighten me out quickly and prevent me from teaching myself bad habits I would have to unlearn later!!

[AR vibration question]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for reading. I look forward to your comments and ideas.

I have a S&W M&P15 Sport that is "factory stock" except for the following modifications:

• Magpul ACS stock
  
• Magpul MOE+ grip
  
• Magpul MOE Hand Guards (carbine length)
  

So, my modifications are mostly ergonomic and cosmetic. I haven't done anything to the trigger, buffer, barrel, gas block, sights, etc. No compensator, just the A2 birdcage as it came from the factory.

Yesterday was my second shooting experience with this rifle. However, it was the first since I added all the Magpul furniture. While shooting, I noticed the rifle vibrated on each shot. By that, I mean that it resonated like a metal beam struck with an impulsive force. Like a bell ringing for a brief moment. Sorry, I'm a new shooter but a long standing Aerospace Engineer. This is the language I know. I hope that translates to you the reader. My perception of the vibration was more than what I recall before I made the stock, grip, and hand guard changes. The ACS is very "tight" without play. Moves smoothly from position to position but then locks into place nicely. The Factory stock had more play in it. The entire ensemble seems tighter put together than before.

Am I perceiving barrel vibration transmitted through the entire rifle? I see the barrel is NOT free-floated from the hand guard (it's a $500 rifle for goodness sake) which makes me think I'm picking up more barrel vibration than a free-floated model. Or could this be something else entirely?

I watched a few minutes of video from a 3-gun match shot behind the competitors (3 Gun Nation from WV). I think I see some of the same mechanics in their rifles (Horner, Butler, et al), but maybe quantitatively less of it.

1) Is this normal?

2) If I find it objectionable, is there a configuration change I could make to reduce it?

Thanks again for your feedback.

-- Mike

[M&P Pro slide won't lock]

"nearly everytime" is still less than everytime. Something is not right here.

[M&P 9 Pro Availability]

Do you know what distributor your dealer get your M&P from? If so please let me know.

I have no idea. Soonest he and I would be able to talk is Wednesday, based on our schedules.

The Pro 9mm was a pleasure to shoot earlier today. I'm very glad I made that purchase.

[CZ-USA Model 712 Utility]

Took my CZ out to the range for it's very first firing. Not the most successful. 1) I suck, 2) it still has some solid recoil, 3) it didn't cycle the military buckshot completely; just 'almost'.

The 1600fps Federal slugs were fine.....stout, but cycled fine.

The Winchester Military stuff would not quite eject the case. The bolt would come back and jam the empty hull on the leading lip of the chamber.

I think it's new (not broken in) and was dry. So, probably "operator error".

I used Briley extended oxide chokes, also (LM and F). Those are nice and fit very snugly. No play in them.

HiViz BirdBuster magnetic front sight added. Using the green triangular light tube.

Who can recommend a good recoil pad to add on without much work on the stock? Thanks.

[M&P 9 Pro Availability]

My local shop in NC was out on Tuesday. He put in a backorder with his distributors and came up with one a couple of days later. He was very surprised to succeed so quickly.

It arrived yesterday and I scrambled over there to take possession. Black & black.....It's mine now!

Date on the test fire case envelope is 12/02/2011. New gun.

I just ordered more mags from Botech. Fantastic price. We will see if I get them in a timely fashion. Thanks for the tip on their prices.

Time to sort through Safariland's obscure product numbers to get the right holster, belt, and such in their ELS system. Could they make that any more cryptic?

[Anyone else a M&P (and related) junkie]

Just yesterday I got my new M&P Pro 9mm. That will be my Tactical Optics or Limited 3-gun pistol. I'm looking forward to testing it this weekend.

The total list:

• M&P Pro 9mm 5" barrel
  
• M&P 45 full size
  
• M&P 40 compact
  
• Walther PPS 9mm
  
• M&P15-22
  
• M&P15 Sport (with Magpul additions in Foliage Green)
  

I've toyed with the idea of a 45 compact for carry as well as the current 40. But realistically, I should put my money toward accessories, a single stack 1911, and perhaps an M1 Garand.

[What's your favorite AR grip?]

I use the MOE on all of my AR's, and I recently tried the MOE+ (rubber over-mold) it is fantastic!

+1 on the MOE+

I have been very pleased with my new Magpul MOE+ grip. I practically purr like a cat when I use it. Great texture!! The stock grip on my AR was so small! Are they making these rifles for children?

I don't mean to say the MOE+ is the very best (wouldn't know), but it's a big improvement over the stock grip I had.

[Heavy Metal poll]

Like Michael1778 just above, I am going HM for the LaRue Texas Multigun in April in WWII division. My firearms are an H&R M1, Maverick 88 pump, and STI Spartan in .45 ACP. With access to two local 3 guns a month, one of which is at Best of the West Range in Liberty Hill, TX, I should get plenty of practice sighting in and reloading after the ping!

Ahhhh, the ping. Perhaps it was a tactical disadvantage in some cases.....but so distinctive.

[Heavy Metal poll]

I'm still new on this forum and haven't shot my first 3-gun match (January 2012). But I thought that newbie perspective might be a useful one in it's own limited way.

Generally, I enjoyed watching 3-gun Nation episodes this season. However, watching Jerry M, Maggie and Mike all shoot open for a couple of episodes was discouraging. It was a total "gear war" on top of the skill battle (they are all scary good). My least favorite episodes. My favorite? The one of Bryan and Rob competing in HM (Ozark?) . That was bad ass, gentlemen! Before I heard about prize tables or anything like that I sat up and said, "Hell yes. I need to shoot that division!" I was already interested in the calibers. Heck, Bryan doesn't even have sponsorship and is competitive. I already had the .45 and was looking hard at a .308 rifle. Granted, I'll totally suck for a long time (almost no rifle time/skill), *but* shooting the classical trio of .308, .45 and pump gun is awesome. It's disheartening to hear about how prize tables may be skewed at matches and such.

Also, HM with magnified optics seems like it isn't much more than Tac Optics (again, newbie theory mostly). When people talk about their .308 shooting almost like a .223 if they put on the right brake, then what is the point after you add a big scope? Especially, if they can use the fancy small caliber race pistols and semi-auto shotguns? Just seems like Tac scope with more expensive rifle ammo and more magazine changes. Yes, I'm new. I could very well not know a blasted thing of which I am speaking. If so, then please accept my apology now.

Personally, I want to learn iron sight use even if it's tough. And I don't want to get in a "scope war" with others and their super expensive Uber Optics (that gets expensive). 1x optics could be a useful compromise. I'm interested in more discussion about this. But I hope the idea of heavy caliber rifles, pistols and 12ga pump doesn't go away.

Maybe I have some romantic notions about the heavy calibers....I don't know. Well, yeah I do. I'm dying to shoot WW2 Division in Texas but may not get all the gear in place in time. My .45 is a S&W M&P, not a single stack. My M1 Garand "crush" is strong, however. So I'm a big bore romantic.

Anyway, I'd love to watch Patrick shoot HM again someday at a match where I can watch him. Bryan is my "hero" as an unsponsored shooter. And Rob was fun to watch with Bryan. I"m very glad to watch him shoot HM. Great competition gentlemen. I thank you!!

And thank you all for this informative thread. I hope more discussion will continue and maybe some of the match ideas can be tried in the months ahead.

Best Regards,

Mike

[Benelli Vinci]

I think you are spot on with the Double Vinci idea. Great marketing and product design ideas you are sharing with them. Tell them your consulting fees and have them hire you as a US Brand Manager for Vinci/Super Vinci products. Sales would increase, I'm sure.

I'd have been all over that package!! Seriously, I'd drop the money on a 21st century shotgun package like that. What amazing flexibility!!

Are the barrels captive to the receiver and that's their hangup? All this seems silly in some ways.

Oh well......

[Benelli M2 Custom Shop Competition ready shotgun?]

Still hasn't been released. Benelli should change their main US web page to stop talking about "Coming This Fall ". Unless they get it out in about 9 days, they are falsely advertising. I'm not implying malice at all. They likely are not keeping up their marketing with product development realities.

I bought a CZ 712 Utility for $299 instead.

BTW, this should be moved to the Shotgun section of the forum, yes?

I hope some of the Benelli sponsored folks can chime in about it while we wait.

[How do I shop for an M1 Garand]

By past military service, I'm exempt. I've got my DD214 handy. That's covered.

I can join a veteran group listed to get the affiliation requirement satisfied.

I was considering a road trip to the South store so I could actually see what I would be getting. Great idea, thanks.

I doubt I can make the finances work before the new year. I would have to eat the expected price increase.

[Winchester 1300]

Who shoots a Win 1300 defender pump w/open choke? (probably nobody) I am going to try this for 3 gun (my first time)and see how it compares to the autos. Anybody got any suggestions on shotshell size? Or maybe somebody has a 21" or 22" modified barrel they wany to sell c h e a p! Thanks

I thought Patrick Kelley used a Winchester 1300 once upon a time when he was doing Heavy Metal matches. Before he got picked up by Benelli as a sponsor.