Jim Norman
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Posts posted by Jim Norman
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The washer is easy, the nut is a bear. Take a plastic straw, insert it into the nut about halfway and you can place the nut square on the bolt and start it.
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I will have to verify, but the last I remember hearing is that the electronic record, being the one entered directly and not copied off another source was the master record.
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We spent the money, we printed the auxiliary score sheets, we handed them out at the walk-thru, we asked that the scores be copied down, we got ZIPPO, NADDA, ZERO back.
Do I like them at a major match? yes. but in reality, at a major if, OK IF the match stats staff collects the scores after every rotation, there are few chances of an issue. Also, I believe and I could be wrong, but in the case of a discrepancy the Electronic score wins. The paper is only there as a back-up should the Electronics take a big dump.
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Bill, I didn't attempt to be inclusive of all penalties on my short list.
What we have done at Area8 was to keep the opt copy (Original) and turn that into stats and give the ENTIRE yellow NCR sheet to the squad mom, it is their job to hand them out.
The order can be what ever you want it to be, but one 8 x 11.5 sheet for 11-12 people vs 0ne 8 x 11.5 sheet for two people is a cost savings.
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Jesse, it is the candor that we applaud.
For the record, the Stoeger is NOT a Benelli, however to my mind there are a couple plus besides the price. I like the longer forearm, having long arms myself, I am not gripping the tube as I would with a shorter gun. I like that Tom does great work at a really fair price.
So far there are two things I have found, while Benelli tube nut fits the threads, it does not fit in the fore end, one or the other needs to be trimmed, MOA makes a nut so that issue is solved. And frankly the finish on the barrel is not as good. So What!? Worse case, I'll paint it!
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The gun comes with a shim kit, but it stops short of where I'd like to go. I would like to drop the stock just a bit more. When I shoulder the gun I am seeing too much rail. If I loosen the stock bolt just a little, say get a 1/16" of an inch at the top of the joint, the gun is about perfect, for me. Now understand I have not been able to make up a shim yet to actually do this and I might spend a lot of time for nothing, but it looks and feels lie it should when I do that.
Other than that this gun is apparently solid, so far. At this point I've got about 700 rounds through it and not a single malfunction that wasn't me.
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Were we to do this, we would probably opt for the single sheet per whole squad version,
Name, Stage, Date/Time RO-Shooter initials
A-B-C-D-NS-M-NPM-Proc-Time-HF
You can fit at least 10 on a page, probably 12. If you need more for a larger squad, start at the BOTTOM of the add-on sheet and work UP. that way you have the sheet still bound together for the next squad or overrun. Just cut off the Carbon Copy for the shooter. When the top sheet is full, move to the next one, and repeat. Using an full half-size sheet as a back up for Nooks is expensive and wasteful.
Yes this should be done all the time, however at club matches it rarely does and it is equally rare (thankfully) that we need it. We tried giving each shooter a sheet to copy his info onto just so he would have a copy, simple, no carbon, print them up at home. Usage level??? Well under 5%.
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If you are looking to purchase a 'Texas Star' I can strongly recommend the Ashton design currently produced by GT Targets. MGM Does an OUTSTANDING job on just about everything they build, but the Texas Star from Ashton/GT is much better. At the two clubs where we regularly shoot and MD matches, we have two Ashton stars at one and two MGM stars at the other. The MGMs don't always release cleanly resulting where as the Ashton model seems to be more trouble free. Granted,t eh MGM system is likely more 'bulletproof' it just doesn't perform as well.
I have no idea anymore what either one cost us. I do know that we bought the first one out at PASA Park at the Nationals and carted it home, must be 8 years or more ago. We just now bought new arms and plates. More to have spares than any other reason. we were able to rebuild everything that needed it on the originals. We're just cautious and we are thinking of a couple 'interesting' uses for the extra arms and plates.
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Cabela's has Carlson Chokes. The extended chokes are surely easier to deal with than the flush ones. Do remember to lubricate them!
I believe they are $39.95 each. Personally I have a IC, LM, M and IM (aka Light Full) I may get a SKT as well. The IC will do almost everything you need and it shoots slugs just fine.
Always remember it it a SHOOTGUN, you have to aim! if you get the center of your pattern on the plate it will fall out to at least 25 yards, past that you may, depending upon the plate weight want to tighten up. I generally run 1-1/8 ounce 1200fps shells.
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I was talking about EMPTY gun starts as in NO ammo in the gun at all. The loaded gun, but empty chamber starts I am doing OK on as I do jus that, stage with a shell on the lifter.
Jim
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I have been to a couple (not sure exactly, maybe 3) matches that did 1/2 day schedules this year. I got screwed on 2 of them because of being on the PM group on the 1st day. The 1st day will almost always goes late, so the PM group's last stage will probably be in the dark because of planning for perfect timing instead of building in "Murphy" time. Trying to cram too much in too little time. It takes time to change kit in between stages, load mags, etc which you really shouldn't be doing it when your squad is shooting because you should be resetting. It takes time to travel to the next stage. What if it rains? everything slows down if it rains... NONE of this stuff is usually built into the schedule, but it absolutely needs to be.
15 shooter squads in 70 minutes in a 3 gun match? Pretty aggressive, and it means ALL the stages will have to be short burner stages. Not my cup of tea. 4 stages per day per squad are not out of the question, but 15 shooters need at least 90 minutes (6 minute turn per shooter), AND a short 15 minute break for kit change and travel and shooters brief and walk thru. To do 8 squads a day at that rate, you are going to need a total stage time of 8x105=840 minutes, or 14 hours. That's starting at 0700 and finishing at 2100! Unless the match is in the extreme north in the middle of the summer when the sun rises at 0500 and sets at 2200, some are going to be shooting in the dark.
So back to the 4 stages per day per squad. 12 shooter squads are easier to manage, and with 6 minute turns, requires 72 minutes, plus the 15 for squad turn, equals 87, round the last 3 minutes up to a 90 minute turn per squad. times 8 squads a day, equals 12 hours. more manageable if its a summer match, but still no disaster factor or "murphy" built in. Add more time for everything if it turns into a mudfest or something else major.
So that leaves us with 3 stages per squad per day as the most manageable, for the most part. If its a berm match with stages right next to each other, pretty easy to do 1/2 days. But add more travel time, then things can get dicy. do it on a range that has the distance between stages measured in MILES, and I think the better answer is every other slot instead of 1/2 days. I would much rather get done early on a full day schedule, than be shooting in the dark on 1/2 days...
eta; and if its 3 stages per day per squad, you can get the average shoot times up to around 100 seconds where 3 gun stages should be, instead of little dumbed down burner stages...
jmho...
jj
Finally a shooter that can add and subtract! FNH just ran with 6 squads a day, 3 Am, 3PM On our stage turns were between 4-1/2 and 6 minutes. per shooter. That was with 8 Staff on the stage! we reset everything, all the shooters did was shoot! And we ran LONG! We managed to get one extra squad through on one day which allowed us to finish up on Saturday about 1-1/2 hours early so we could clean up and tear down before the awards and not have to return on Sunday.
If the stages are spread out even a little, if the stages are mostly 3 guns, if there is any setting and taping by the shooters 12 on a squad is about the maximum.
You need to figure 6 minutes minimum per shooter, 10 minutes for a walk-through, 5 minutes for the brief and Q&A and time to travel between stages, 10 min and time for the pre-load another 5 minutes..This works out to 102 minutes or 12 minutes longer than scheduled. Most of the time you don't need the whole 10 minutes to travel and you don't use the whole 5 minutes for Q&A and occasionally you don't need the whole 10 for the walk-through. BUT add in rain, mud, additional distance and you can easily get screwed over.
The one-on, one-off schedule works potentially a little better. Everyone is on the range all day, sorry to the local attractions, but we now have 90 minutes to travel and pre-load. This is time that can be subtracted from the 102 minutes above. So we can now MOST likely even do the stage brief while the previous squad is clearing off their last shooter.
It is very important to not over sell a match. Adding just one shooter per squad can destroy the match timing. Look at the venue where you are shooting, are there time constraints? I.E., what is the earliest shot fired time? latest shot? Is Sunday different than the rest of the week? When is sunset at the time of year you are holding your match? All of this needs to be factored in. How seasoned are your ROs? How many per stage? are they going to burn out during the match becasue there are only three and one can't do more then manage the back end? This might work in a pit based pistol match, but on Natural Terrain you need to be able to spell your ROS no more than two squads without a rest.
Just my thoughts. And yup, we got burned last week at a club match. we figured we'd be picking up by headlight, but we didn't count on a couple squads having a higher number of newer 3-gun ROs and shooters. Clearance time for them ran too long. We might have made it with either one less stage or a different mix of shooters. Stuff happens to everyone. Even a heavy overcast vs clear skies can cost you an hour of shoot-able daylight.
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Funny, I have run a Remington 1187 for about 15 years and just switched to a Stoeger. Before doing so I shot a friends Benelli in a couple matches as my 1187 was starting to have issues. I found the recoil easily manageable. I shot another friends 1301 and my impression and that is all it is, was that the 1301 had more recoil. The M3k so far has run everything it has been fed.
Tom at MOA did a nice job on setting the gun up. I was surprised that the forearm on the M3k is about 3" longer than the Benelli, a fact that is i nits favor at least for me as I have long arms.
Issues? None of consequence, I have to trim the forearm to install a QD Sling attachment, the finish on the barrel is not quite as nice as a Benelli. Not a bad trade for a $900 difference in cost. The M3k is about a full pound lighter than my 1187 and that is a 24" vs a 20" barrel. so in equal lengths it is probably even lighter.
Now, if I had an unlimited or at least a larger budget would i have gone for the M2 Benelli and ll the tricks? Maybe, yes, maybe no. Some say there aren't as many gilhickies available for the M3k as for other guns. OK, I have had a trigger job, a tube, a kick-ez pad, had the loading port opened up, I am adding a match saver and a couple QD points. I am not adding an X-Rail or a Speed load ramp as I don't shoot Open, so what am I missing?
I am not saying I wouldn't ever shoot a different gun (anyone looking to sponsor an old guy?) but so long as I am self-sponsored, I have to decide, match fees and ammo or more expensive gear.
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Is the only selling point of the M3000 over a M2 cost?
I actually prefer the M3000 to the M2. They have a little less felt recoil, the LOP is easier to adjust and the shell catch is way better. I like versatility and thus want my 3gun shotguns to be good at clay games and even hunting. I personally feel that the extra few ounces of the M3000 makes it balance and swing better on birds. But that is purely preference. I like the M2, but have always felt that it was a little too light for my taste. I also like the longer hand guard and magazine tube of the M3000. Fits my long arms better than the M2 and requires a shorter extension. Shorter extension means no barrel clamp.
I was surprised to find out that the Stoeger had a longer stock tube and handguard. With my reach that is a MAJOR plus. So far I've run all sorts of rounds, including Winchester Universal (WalMart) and the only failures have been mine. Mostly still learning to Quad load/Load Two and operation issues coming off 15 years shooting an 1187. They don't work exactly the same. Unloaded starts have been my biggest issue, have to remember to hit the release BEFORE racking the bolt
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Commercial & retail construction frequently has glass "walls" that are transparent. They are functionally no more or less "impenetrable" than opaque walls made of 2x4's & drywall.
Those are called WINDOWS or on occasion, WINDOW WALLS. Yes you can see through them, but is a round passed through one you would know it!
As for our fencing, we don't have metal frames that can become very dangerous as they get shot up and we don't have wood frames that twist. The Stockade fence works and with a proper brace stands up to most winds we get.
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OK, my take on Walls vs Fence or Screen.
A wall in your house is a solid thing you cannot look through. Having seen enough of a lot of you with your shooting clothes on, this makes me very happy.
OK, humor aside, I like solid walls as a stage designer and as a RO/CRO when running a shooter. I understand that from a spectator perspective as well as a range safety issue, screens and construction fence are 'better'.
With a WALL, i.e. a solid non-transparent thing, the shooter cannot have his sights aligned before he gets visibility on the target, the RO doesn't have to try to determine if a round passed through a hole in the netting, shoot through a wall and there is a hole in the wall. Cut a port in the wall where you want. Don't want the shooter to sight through the wall, a solid wall eliminates those issues. We use inexpensive stockade fence from Lowe's or Home Depot, generally the 6 x 8 sections last 3-5 years each before we replace them. And that was when we stored them outside.
I would not be opposed to a hybrid system, put solid walls around ports, put 2 feet of solid at he end of a wall to prevent lining up your sights before you had the target 'in view'. but I really don't like mesh or screen 'walls' as the only walls on a stage. Provided that one declares all wall go to the ground, if you want to raise your walls up 2 feet to allow for a leg check down range, I don't have a big issue with that either.
Just a few of my thoughts.
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Mr. Kelly, should you wind up out this way, there is a really nice SC course not far away.
Did it one time and I have to say if I were not hooked on USPSA and 3-gun, I'd be shooting Sporting Clays.Shot 74 of 100 on the Intermediate course.
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I have to sort of disagree with the Benelli Chick. Sort of...
You DON'T have to get your stages approved and you don't have to have USPSA HQ Staff. That only applies if you want to be Level II or Level lll, if all you want to do is run a match, the MOST you need to send to USPSA is $1.50 per shooter unless you run a classifier, then you add another $1.50 per shooter.
An organization, any viable nationwide organization SHOULD give us as MDs the benefit of a set of rules that is vetted (more or less) and a pool of trained, mature, talented, honest, hardworking Range Officers. OK< not all ROs are any of the above let alone all of the above and there are a slew of people out there that are qualified but not certified. So, we get them certified. This CAN lead to acceptance in places where we are not allowed and it could keep us from losing places where we are allowed now, but on shaky ground and all it would take is one board member to leave and we'd be gone.
Now, if you want to run a 'National Championship' or a Continental or Hemispherical Championship, you might need and may even want a National Organization behind you. I understand that as it currently sits, MOST of the outlaw 3-gun matches fill up and most seem to get all the staff they need, but 3-Gun is growing. That growth can be really good or it can kill us off. If we have the wild west with regards to rules and problems crop up, that could be a bad thing, The new matches that are starting up by people that attend other matches, but don't currently run 3-gun will be trying to create what they saw. They'll borrow some here and some there and make up the rest and sooner or later that will bite someone really hard.
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Interesting line of thought. With tubes being allowed as long as you can get them we are almost Open with the SG, with magnification of 8x, maybe more we are pushing Open with Rifle.
How about we step back: 1-6x on Rifle, 8+1 max in SG, 140mm mag in HG unless SS, then 170.
Might push a few into Open.
Pump only? sorry, nowhere near enough there. Almost everyone has an auto now. you'd not survive that backlash!
BUT maybe we could have a separate TO lite where Pump, 1-4x, and SS hg play?
Or, maybe we could just leave it alone?
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The original question: 'Does 3-Gun need a Governing Body' remains.
My feeling is that a conference, similar to the Columbia Conference that started IPSC might be in order. If say 15-20 of the MDs of the biggest best run matches were to somehow get together and hammer out the differences in the rule sets and then set up or align with say 3GN or maybe even USPSA and run all the big matches by that set of rules, everyone would know what to expect. The stage designers could design and the shooters could prepare. Would there be a cost associated? perhaps, but if either USPSA or 3GN were the lead and I am a little bit leaning towards USPSA as it is a not for profit, we might have 'sanctioning' and a method of certifying ROs and CROs for the sport that could influence some reluctant clubs to allow us in and some skittish ones to allow us to stay and play.
We would also have a ready made institution to handle the overhead details between clubs and matches.
And then again I could be just plain off my rocker here.
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While it is possible, I seriously doubt there will be re-holstering of your handgun. That is more than just a DQ waiting to happen. I would speculate that we will engage all HG targets, clear and dump, then engage all rifle targets.
I have shot matches that required one hand reloads, simulating a disabled support hand, and I have shot matches that required shooting the last couple targets with your handgun after your rifle was dry, but while you retained the rifle in a safe direction. For some this is would not be an issue, for others...
Jim
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Damned glad I didn't update last night then!
Unless and until I read it here I think I'll leave we enough alone. -
It is a sad state of affairs when we have to think about how to keep someone from changing a score. We keep our scores on our systems and therefore can dispute any changes made elsewhere. If someone were to be caught altering a score, I would like to be able to know that they have shot their last match anywhere in any sport.
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Is this really that hard of a question?
Is the gun EMPTY? That is NO AMMO IN THE GUN, NO AMMO IN AN INSERTED MAGAZINE? then it is as safe as a stick
If the answer to the above is NO, then apply the safety. Can't apply the safety? Then see #1 above, empty the gun of all ammo.
All the rest of the arguments are red-herrings. I am sorry if you have to take an extra couple seconds to empty your choice of firearm over what it takes me to empty mine. Too bad. Look people we play a game akin to running with scissors here and to many range owners probably worse. An accident that we can avoid as simply as having scrupulously following one of the two scenarios above can shut down a match. Not just for the time it takes to get EMS there, but in all likelihood forever. Is that really worth the couple seconds it takes to follow the rules?
Oh, you aren't sure about the rules? RTFM, the rules for all matches are generally posted. can't find them, ASK the CRO on the stage. We don't get pleasure from tripping up a fellow shooter. We are happy to explain a requirement, much happier to do so BEFORE an incident that explain why we told you that you DQ'd
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Very interesting topic and discussion.
If I were to be MD / RM at a major match, I would be very inclined to go against the grain and impose a new rule stating all grounded guns must be completely empty, nothing in the chamber, mag, tube or other. This would effectively nullify any potential controversy and ultimately keep everyone on course to execute each COF safely.
I almost agree, but then I think back on a few instances of 'speed unloading' that I have seen and wonder if that is worse. Rifles and handguns are simple, hit the mag release and rack out the round, gun is now or should be empty. Shotguns are a bit more problematic, how do you empty an X-Rail quickly and safely? So do we now have two separate grounding conditions? One for Rifles and Handguns and one for Shotguns? The best way I have seen is to have bunkers that are placed so no one can walk in front of them and that will completely retain the firearm in question in a safe manner. Now you can abandon the firearm, empty, safety on or hot and there is as close to zero a chance of an issue as it is possible to have.
Stoeger M3000 Scattergun?
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
What I want is a shim set to lower the stock, ie more rise, just about 1/16" more at the at the top that the bottom. Basically the opposite of what is shipped. I've got the flattest shim in now.