Allgoodhits

Yes, Chuck, the formula (equation) is correct for a target travelling at 10 fps and providing lead in inches. Note that the radius for the X ring is 2", the 10 ring is 4", the 8 ring is 6", and the target half width is 9", then these references serve as pretty good "hold" references any of these loads. MJ

Kevin, Good Eye, you are right that is Karl Piper! Two Piper's in a famous AMERICAN magazine, does this make them famous as well? Tom... Yes, but they were already famous. This just re-enforces it

We hope that many first timers, new shooters as well as the well versed can make it to the Cup 2010. Just some observations which may be useful: Match 1 aka PRACTICAL: Spend time time shooting groups at 50 yds. Many shooting disciplines rarely have 50 yd shots anymore, so know what your gun/ammo will do. Leartn what you need to do to shoot a center target area shot. Center area for you and your gun may be an X, a ten, maybe an eight or just centered somewhere on the paper. Also spend some tme shooting the 25 yd strings as they are challenging as well. Don't ignore the weak hand only string. Match 2 aka BARRICADE: Time goes by fast on this one, so a quick draw and mount is critical so that you can settle quickly, then start shooting. If an open gun, the reverse grip (right side left hand, left side right hand) is suggested. This becomes a technique event. Get the techniques down, and the shooting is much less difficult. Metallic and Production guns, it is just tough. Spend some time shooting from both sides of the barricade at 25 & 35 yds to figure out what you need to do, and where you need to hold to get the desitred outcome you seek. Then figure out how to get it done in the alloted time. Match 3 aka MOVER: If you have access to one by all means use it. One mistake which I think many shooters do is that they don't shoot enough standing point shoulder shooting at 25 yds. This shows big time on the Mover. Shoot 6 shot groups in 5 seconds or so at 10 & 15 yds, then shoot 3 shot groups in 5 seconds at 20 & 25 yds, that is what you are doing on the MOver. Simply add some swivel at the knees and some lead and keep the gun moving snd you'll be surprised how "less" difficult it becomes. As a genereal rule simply lead the target by 1/4s at each distance, it will be good enough for all but a very few hard holders. Match 4 aka Falling PLATES: Shoot on plates or anything that reacts to your shooting. You must get used to the fall or not, as you shoot. With paper, this does not exist. After you have fired a shot, no matter what (fall or not) simply in cadence go to the next plate and so on. Plates are not as hard as they are, but stinking thinking bites deep as there are no eights on the plates! MJ

Great work Tom: It is great to get sponsors that our outside the shooting industry! It is great PR for the sport, keep up the good work! Kim +1

Briefly it is a target hung on the carrier which travels perpendicular to the shooter at a speed of 10 fps for a distance of 60 ft. Thus you always have 6 seconds of shooting time as the target passes R to L, then L to R. At 10 & 15 yd distances you must shoot 6 shots per pass, or 6 shots in 6 seconds. One pass each R to L then L to R. At 20 & 25 yd distances you shoot 3 shots per pass. Two passes each R to L, then L to R. Target is NRA AP-1 which resembles a tombstone shape, with a 4" X ring, a 8" Ten ring, a 12" Eight ring. Hope this helps

Just a few years ago there were no trigger pull weight rule, and there were no such rule stating that "all safeties as installed" had to work. In fact, the barrel length rules for then Stock guns, included 8 3/8" revos as an example. Based on this. I would like to ask the following: Where were all the "promised" IPSC and IDPA shooters then? As I recall, then BC coordinator Russ Stott also made a change that you had to shoot the match standing up. It was told to me that this was in part due to the promise that many would come if he put the match on one's feet. I never quite understood this, as I guess going prone required too much "action" for the "real action shooters" because not only did we not attract many new shooters, we also lost some. So perhaps we need to make a list of all the excuses people have for not shooting NRA Action Pistol, or BC. On the other hand it doesn't matter. Are the shooting sports a victim of our current culture? By this I mean, many gun age persons today grew up with schools that didn't give grades, sports where no score was kept and other forms of redistribution. Not all shooting sports are for everyone, just as not all running sports are for everyone, and not all "ball" sports are for everyone. This however, does not dilute the sport(s) for those who like their sport or shooting game. The NRA has been around since 1871, and started as I recall for the benifit or promotion of shooting contests. They must be doing something right. The Bianchi Cup has been around since 1979, and it also must be doing something right too. For those of you who would shoot the CUP or other NRA AP matches, but .................. . I would suggest that you get in touch with Alan550, Action Pistolero, Allgoodhits or a number of others on this forum and provide your reason for not shooting. If your reason is equipment related, then we may just be able to provide you with whatever you need to give it an honest, no more excuses try. My favorite excuse is from the constant poster(s) who say on this NRA-BIANCHI CUP section of Brian's Forum that they don't know where any matches are? Hmm, they are on this FORUM, reading these posts, where over and over other posters are providing the list and contact persons, yet they still have the same excuse, over and over. On the other hand, some good reasons for not shooting NRA AP may be.... I just don't have the time. I know where there are matches, but unwilling to go that far to shoot them. I can't find a shooting buddy, who also wants to try it. Don't have the money to get into "yet another" shooting discipline. I Like shooting at 15 yds or less only. My gun isn't relaible enough, i.e. it jams too often. My sponsor dropped me, and I only shoot if someone else pays for it. I can't find components to reload with, or they are too expensive! .. and there are many, many others.

Regarding the trigger pull weight and the grip safety. Max Michel and others could dispell much of that hinderance if you observed their runs on the Speed event on Saturday. Regarding the prone.....it's free style, one can stand up, sit down, kneel or squat if they like, one or two handed, weak or strong. Not sure but I think Kevin, Travis and some others are shooting better with the 2.5 lb triggers than they were with the 1 pounders. The super light trigger make it too easy to trigger dot, instead of dot trigger. MJ

I Love this idea, it would need to be promoted from Collegiate & Schools, I know they have tried to get this going with little or no result. We actually were just talking about a Junior specifc Sectional, but we do not have the numbers to justify it! Build it at your level, we will support it! Tom... Tom, Would NRA GRANT money be a possibility for these programs? If not maybe GRANT Jeavons money! MJ

Why not bring back the International Rapid Fire event. The years they used this course of fire there were no perfect scores. I also like the idea of leaving prone in and letting people use the barricade for support. International Rapid Fire is a hoot if I am thinking about the correct match. The three target array would require some turning target frame mods, then difficult to go back to the two target array, at least at BC. Other than that it is a terrific event. We just completed the VA State Championships, and there, Kevin, had the Advanced Military Event. It was fun, but became a bigger bottle neck than the Mover. Some some thought needs to go into making event decisions based on the time it takes to get shooters through. On a different note, regarding some of the rules and equipment stuff others have mentioned. Many participants shoot compromised gear to one degree or another. One doesn't have to go prone, one doesn't have to use the barricade for support, one doesn't have to have a mover base. Andy Rayland and others shoot the whole match standing and does well. Many of the better scores on the barricade with metallic/production guns are fired without touching the barricade at all, and last year Greg Davis cleaned the Mover with a Metallic gun holding lead, and Tony Holmes holds lead on the Mover and cleans it more often than not. I would encourage those whom have never been, bring what you have that fits within the rules, and shoot the match. One will likely find that the cause of the miss, the 5, and maybe the 8, was not gear related.... MJ

+1

Tom, You are correct, except we ALL owe Kevin a huge thank you. From outside the brick and block of NRA HQ there is no one who does more for NRA Action Pistol than Kevin Angstadt. We recently shot Kevin's Regional and VA State match in Bluefield VA. There were thousands of dollars worth of prizes, given away from the bottom up, by the way, for newer or accuracy challenged shooters! I believe some National Records were set that weekend by others, and Kevin fired a blistering 420-42X on the Los Alamitos event, as well as a pleasing 480-37X Mover that was very tight, and but for a few millimeters would have been in the mid 40's on the X's. I'm seeing an ANGSTADT CUP in the future! Thanks Kevin, we all owe you. Martin

If you lighten the recoil spring, also make sure that "all" your magazines will work in your gun when loaded to the maximum capacity that you will ever shoot it, including topped off with a chamber round. This sympton has been an unpleasant surprise to some. Also, check all shooting positions that you are likely to do, especially WHO. MJ

Thanks, Lrjet, yes wood has a bit shock absorbancy, that metal will not have. The Saturn Rings or similar, are normal, the consistency and firmness of the mount/grip will keep the rings minimized and consistent. Both of which are beneficial in the recovery time leading to the next shot. So if you are having rings, then you must be shooting an auto. Remember, the balls to pause! The dot will settle down, just make sure you don't yank on the trigger when it stops, because that will put the dot "in motion" before the bullet leaves the barrel. The trigger will dictate an all important element that we all forget from time to time. That being where the dot "was" when the bullet left the muzzle. This is more critical, than where the dot "is" when you press the trigger! The ideal world has the was as unchanged from the is. If the was and is are the same you had good trigger press/control. If not you didn't. Now just make sure the is, is in the right place. The trigger is the eraser in shooting. No matter how good everything else is: grip, stance, breathing, sighting the bad press/control of the trigger will erase it all. Have fun, and speak to as many people as you can. There are different strokes for different folks. Just don't bail too quickly, because something that didn't work yesterday, may work tomorrow, when you have a better understanding of what is going on during the firing sequence. Later, Martin

YRMV but for me with a revo, you must get as quick a mount as is possible, with minimal fumbling to find the target center, then immediately start working the trigger. As you are working the trigger you are fine tuning the "dot" to the desired area where by you want the shot to break. After a very slight "follow through" repeat the process. It is important to understand, AND ACCEPT, that our hold area differs. Of course we all want X's, or 10's. But for some of us depending on our equipment, our skill and time allocated for practice, the best we can hope for may be 8's or better. If one's skill ability is 8's and 10's don't force the X's, they will take care of themselves. If you force an outcome better than what your skill set is likely to be, then you will likely not get the X, but will certainly get the 5 or worse, run out of time. For tha auto, as I have been known to say you must have the balls to pause! In other words as mentioned on the revo comment above, acquire as quick a mount as is possible, with the landing zone as precise as is possible to target center. Pause slightly to reaffirm the grip and mount, and center the dot in "your" aiming area, then press the trigger. When the shot breaks the dot will jump around pretty violently, but if your grip and mount are solid the dot movement will be pretty consistent. Practice, learning and consistency in grip, mount, support and also barricade structure will enable you to reduce the dot movement, but it will still be present. The key is consistency, repeatability, then it is easier to cope with the movement, and learn to master it. You just need to pause, long enough to let it settle down, before the next shot is fired. If you don't pause, you will be surprised how bad the shots can be, especially at 25 & 35 yards. I would say that 8 out of ten times when a less than acceptable shot is fired on the barricade during a string, the culprit started with a poor grip from holster, or during exchange, or from a bad mount at the barricade. The poor grip or exchange will lead in many cases to a poor mount, which leads to anxiety and bad shots, or excess time. For this reason, personally, I think the draw is as important during the barricade event than most of the NRA AP events. Time is so limited, so many things have to happen, and precision is required. Hope this helps! MJ

.... as others have mentioned, when you have to "modify" a stock, noncustom shop factory gun in order to make it NRA AP Production legal, then something is clearly wrong with some part of the definition. The Production holster, per NRA AP, has language to the effect of "suitable for everyday use". Suitable for what for the use of whom? Everyday use for a soldier may require a strap, for a cop, maybe triple retention, for a professional shooter maybe a Ghost or similar. All three aforementioned users use "production guns". If they meant concealed carry, then say so. The Production concept is a good one, but the definition of the firearm and other equipment needs some fine tuning for sure. MJ

Haven't we all been VICTIM to, "but he said it was OK" before. Perhaps, have the local match director place a sticker on the equipment that in his opinion is not within the rules. Let the person (first few times) shoot anyway. This would serve as notice as well as reminder that the shooter is going to have to seek a higher level ruling or make a change with his or her equipment. MJ

Chuck, I find that having the novice holstering a loaded firearm is just as dangerous as drawing a loaded one. Perhaps, that is the answer though, simply have them holster empty, then give them the opportiunity to reload when they have removed the firearm from the hiolster for the next string. That may just work, and the small amount of added time, would be offset by introducing more to the game. Larry, I think the excitement comes in when the score goes up. Said another way, "figuring" out how to get the shots in tha smallest aiming area serves as the "fun and excitement" for some of us in the precision games. The same argument could flow next to PPC, then Bullseye, then Free Pistol etc. We all float our boats our way I guess.

How is this for a production holster test. If you can turn the gun around 180 degress and put it into the holster and the gun doesn't fall, it is permitted. In other words there is at least some type of a "bucket" for it to drop in to. Perhaps put another way, the part of the holster which the gun is inserted into must have a 360 degree enclosure of some part of the gun. It could be open at the top, it could closed at the top, open at the bottom, or it could be enclosed all the way, but it has to have some 360 degree enclosure. MJ P.s. Kevin, I think the DOH is Drop Offset, in other words hangs low and sticks out. Is that a legal phrase on a public forum?

Griz, GLOCK shoots are fun, there is no question about that, and I think the prizes are distributed on a Lewis system, but not sure. Maybe I'll overstep a bound or two here, but I think many recreational shooters or competitors are similar to those who like to play pick up baseball, basketball , soccer or flag football. Some of these persons love those games and love shooting, but for a variety of reasons do not want to engage in more formal, competitions where their individual performance will stand out, whether it be good or bad. Similar to stage fright that so many experience. Perhaps I am way wrong on this. Referencing your holster forgiveness idea. Yes, it has potential as a good one and I agree, but unfortunately for NRA AP as it is now it would be very difficult to do. GLOCK type matches all have a static firing point. You come to the line, and you do all your shooting from that firing point. However in NRA AP the firing line changes. In most cases when the line moves from one distance to another, the firearms are kept hot, and holstered. Compunding this we shoot near to far, so persons would be turning around with gun in hand, unless they are rebagged. Yes, you could have those without holsters unload and show clear then bag their gun, just do have to go through all of that 3 more times for each event. Very time consuming. Maybe shooting in reverse order would work. Shoot he long distance first, then advance with a hot gun, this way one would not be turning around facing the crowd with a hot gun. Something to think about. MJ

Chuck, you and Tony in my opinion have hit the nail on head. The rules are quite simply not simple. Complex rules eventually get sorted out over time with trial and error and interpretation, however with the new categories, and or the new rules, then there has not yet been the number of matches for the issues to sort themselves out. To this issue add the situation of the Bianchi Cup being run somewhat separate from NRA AP and the likelihood of of shared knowledge of the local Club experiences not getting to the organizers or operators of the actual Cup. This is getting better, but yet there is still room as there always will be for improvement. Another huge problem in my opinion is that the NRA Action Pistol program has it's oversight from the NRA Action Pistol Committee. One would think that the NRA Action Pistol Committee is made up of shooter's and match Directors of NRA Action Pistol. Well, it is not. It is my understanding that the NRA's Board of Directors serve on various Committees. Some serve on their pet Committee based on their past experiences, some serve because they must. Suffice it to say that the design makers of the rules for NRA AP is the AP Committee. To my knowledge there are only two members of the AP Committee whom have ever shot NRA AP and neither of them is, maybe ever has been an NRA AP match director. It is also my understanding that some members of the NRA AP Committee have never been to, or seen an NRA AP match. With this in mind, it is easier to understand how some less than clear rules or decisions can come about. Politics plays a bigger role than does anything else. This is sad. The answer is that we need more shooters and match Directors to get on the BOD at NRA so that then BOD Members who are also shooters will be serving on Committees, which then craft and approve the rules. MJ

This is exactly why the barrel length will not change. They are already going to seperate revolvers and autos so why do it. No one is saying that you can't shoot a shorter barrel length. If they can't find a holster to fit a 6" they need to ask. We did it. So now add another 15 minutes to the Banquet

Barrel lenght does not have to be 5", just not greater than 5". Currently for Production the max barrel length for revos is 6" and for semi's it's 5.35". My point is that make them the same, and rather than go to 6" for both, make it not to exceed 5" for both. It appears eveident that the NRA wanted this to be for non-target guns, and since they require the holster to be "for everyday use" hinting, I think, toward carry guns, then make it so. Many persons carry Commander's w/ barrel lenght of 4.25, or a 5" 1911. Some carry Berettas with barrel lenght of 4.7 or 4.9 and a fair number carry Glock 17's and the like with less than 5" barrels and a fair number carry revos with 4" or less barrels. Does anyone carry a revo with a 6" barrel or a Glock 34, or M&P 9L or any of that bigger stuff? If any, it is very few. I don't think there is an issue so much with semi vs revo, the issue was that no SA was permitted, thus eliminating 1911s Browning HPs and similar equipment. My opinion is if you want to be entry level then make it such. PD or LE trade ins are the best value out there, and by and large they are either 4" revos, or autos with a 5" or less barrel. PLus, since the requirement is for a carry type holster, then those holsters are abundant for 5" or less guns. That's my .02 on the subject, MJ

from a letter I sent to NRA with suggestions for 2010 and beyond.... Dwight, It is my understanding that you are still Chair of the Action Pistol Committee, and if so I would like to tender some opinions for consideration. If you are not on the Committee, please so advise so that I may get this information to others. First, let me say that NRA AP is once again strong, and growing in spite of the economy, and the severe shortage and cost of shooting supplies in the past year or so. This growth and strength in the sport is much, if not all, to the credit of Tom Hughes and his staff in the Competitive Shooting Division at NRA. Not to be overlooked of course is the obvious support from his hierarchy at NRA, including but not limited to Michael Krei. Second, the 2009 BC was a huge success due to many of the innovations that have been implemented, and the cleaning up of other specific issues. Again, Tom Hughes had a great deal to do with this as well. Some ideas, for NRA AP in general. All gun Divisions: Do away with the chronograph requirement at each stage, and perhaps completely. The POWER FACTOR issue was a product of the 1970's when people were either shooting 1911's in .45 acp, Browning HP's in 9mm or the K frame revolver crowd, namely PPC shooters. Those shooting 9mm's and .38 spl WC's were perceived as having an advantage of the 1911 .45 acp shooters, so an attempt was made to level that issue. Today, most 1911 shooters are shooter 9mm's or .38 Supers, and virtually all others are shooting .38 spls. The 9mm's and .38 Supers are loaded very very close to the Power Factor requirement anyway, since much below that they will not run/cycle reliably. The revolver crowd are shooting velocities in the 900fps+ range now anyway, due to the lead on the mover, and the quickly turning (edging) targets so as not to have a late shot. The chrono requirement of taking 6 rds from each competitor at each event is time consuming, labor intensive for range staff and annoying to the shooters. After all, they only check the gun once at the initial inspection, so if it is necessary to collect ammo at each stage, then why wouldn't the same logical distrust flow to checking the competitors gun at each stage? Open gun Division: Seems to be working fine don't mess with it. Metallic Sight Division: Make maximum barrel length 6" requirement the same for both semi-auto and revolver. Why have the rule unnecessarily complex. These guns are clearly target/competition guns akin to PPC open revolvers and PPC semi-autos, or other modified non-compensated, metallic sighted guns. Production Division: Make maximum barrel length requirement the same for both semi-auto and revolver. I would suggest that the maximum barrel length should be 5 inches. This would work for just about any gun that any PD would issue, and about any gun that IDPA would permit. A 5" 1911, a Browning HP, a Beretta and S&W Model 10, 13 or 15, 67, or 66 would all be eligible, as would all Glocks, SIGS and HKs that anybody would likely carry or be issued. After all, this Division must have had some hint of carry or duty when it's language was drafted, otherwise why the limitation of holster designed for everyday use? Either permit single action guns to compete in Production, or create a second category for it. If you do this, then you need three categories. Revolver, Single action semi-auto and all others. My suggestion would be to have one category of Production, but make the trigger pull requirement of at least 4 - 5 lbs or so. BTW, no one shoots a revolver single action, but the revolver triggers were weighed in the SA mode. This is ridiculous. Bianchi Cup specific Permit shooters to enter as many Divisions that they choose to pay to enter, and permit them to be eligible for all that they earn while shooting the Division(s) which they enter. This will do several things. Make it more worthwhile to spend a week away from home with all the travel and expense just to be limited to 192 shots. Let them enter to shoot 384 shots or 576. This will raise revenue by having more entries, but not raise parking, portatoilet, or other staff issues for the match. This will "show" statistically that there is growth in the sport. One hundred shooters shooting "two" guns is 200 entries, whereas one hundred fifty shooters shooting "one" gun is 150 entries! Yes, charge double or triple entry fees for those who wish to be eligible for prize in those additional Divisions. Maybe offer some multi-gun discount, but make it worthy of the challenge. You have to pay to play. Offer winners of Open, or Metallic or Production, and also offer a Three gun Winner. Introduce .22LR Rimfire to the Championship. It exists, there are National Records recognized, why not offer it at the National Championships? Thank you, Dwight, for your service to the shooting sports and specifically to the National Rifle Association. Warm Regards, Martin Johnson NRA Benefactor Member

Hey Kim, I resemble that remark!

Whoa. There are plenty of shooting sports out there. They are not for everyone. Baseball, Basketball, Football, Wrestling and Tennis may likely not be for those who prefer the everyone particpates, and everyone is a winner attitude of other sports. Shooting sports are similar. Some prefer the running, and weekend warrior approach that some of the shooting sports offer, some prefer the precision and discipline of free pistol, and then there is all the stuff in between. When I started shooting NRA AP regularly in 1996, except for a 1981 Bianchi trip, the closest match for me from No.VA was Hinton, WV, a 550 mile round trip. Now, I can shoot at Chambersburg, PA, a 200 mile round trip, Cumberland, MD a 290 mile round trip, Bedford, VA, a 360 mile round trip, still Hinton, WV, a 550 mile round trip, Bluefield, VA, a 650 mile round trip and Columbia, MO a 2,000 mile round trip. Why do some blast NRA AP, and Bianchi specifically? My guess, based on my obsrevations and opinions is that because it is hard. It is hard for the precision shooters, because they are not used to the speed, and the no alibis, and the you must shoot now. It is hard for the speed shooters because it requires a level of accuracy that they are not accustomed to, and that there are no back up opportunities to make up for a bad shot. At Bianchi to excell you must perform near perfectly. Most people can not handle the pressure of that requirement. How many of us shoot clean at practice, then go to the Cup and miss 1-3 plates? Drop 10-20 pts on the Mover and so on. Drop ten points in any of the individual matches and you drop to 40-50th place overall for that match. Do that in all 4 events and you are in the 1880's. A very respectable score at BC, but far from the outstanding performances required to be in the winner circle. Shoot Bianchi/NRA Action for the challenge! It is hard, but it is doable with decent equipment, and you do not have to have a $300 holster, or a $300 jacket, or shoes. You must however, be able to hit an 8" ten ring 12 times at 35 yds and 12 times at 50 yds, the rest of the time you only have to hit the 8" ten ring from 25 yds or closer. The caveat is that you must do it with only the shots afforded, no alibis and you must have the skill to do it, and the nerves to handle the success when it is facing you. How many 1910's have been fired and the shooter missed a plate at 10 yds, or the last plate at 25 yds? I've done it as have many others. So fellow shooters, shoot the games you like, don't shoot the ones you don't, but don't knock until you have tried, and better yet don't knock it just because you can't handle it! Shoot NRA Action Pistol and it will teach you something about yourself that you can learn from. The NRA AP time limits offer just that right amount of time for you to "think" during the strings, thus letting the mind interfear with your performance! The mind is a terrible thing when it comes to shooting very, very accurately. Cheers! MJ