dmshozer1
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Posts posted by dmshozer1
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Larry did answer "OK so here you go, know your shot pattern from 10 yards to 22 yards, know you rifle dope from 3 feet to 450 yards, know how much your handgun bullet drops from 3 feet to 50 yards and of course the big question is the slugs, know your drop from 25 yards to 125 yards." But it's a very generic answer. These are things you should practice for every match, plus a whole lot more. It's the best we can do until the stages are on the ground and it probably has a much larger window than we need. We can't tell you everything even if we do know it. I'd be willing to bet that there are no slug targets at 125 yards, and if there are they will be very large. It seems to me the rule of thumb for rifle is 3 or more moa, slugs 15 or more moa, and pistol 20 or more moa targets at most major matches. I'm sure those guidelines will not be violated at our match.
Although it's a good idea to know your slug dope to 125 yards or more I won't be practicing past 100 yds. That's just from knowing Larry and his matches and other major matches. But I haven't seen the stages on the ground yet either.
PERFECT!!
Thanks
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Another thing about Larry: He has a history of making his matches very shootable. Back when him and I were running USPSA matches we shared a common philosophy. "Build the match for a C class Production shooter that is challenging, but shootable. If they can have fun the higher classified or Open shooters will have fun too, and going fast will add to their challenge." Shooters will always find a way to make easy stages hard by attempting to shoot above their abilities. Our philosophy is still very much the same. Larry will not bury you in trickery and impossible tasks. You will not go home from this or any of Larry's matches angry that you were not able make any shot. You may go home angry at yourself for not being able to do something that was well within your ability if you just didn't find a way to screw it up.
The match staff from Larry down are all shooters first and foremost. We're not professional ROs, MDs, etc. We want to shoot and have fun. We want you to shoot and have fun also. We've worked diligently on this match since before the match last year was even finished. We have assembeled an incredible staff. The prize table will be truly amazing. The stages will be challenging, but shootable. The only thing we can't guarantee is the weather, and I'm looking for a way to do that.
If we were less than courteous in our answers I apologize. We were just playing. We're those kind of smart alecks. I'm glad Larry was able to answer later. He is the stage designer and I know he has walked the areas where the stages have been several times. Still, as pointed out, things are hard to figure until they're actually in place. Be ready for anything. In Multi-gun there is more room for improvisation than USPSA when building stages. I like that part. A lot.
I have shot with and talked to both of you in the past years.
When I found out you had teamed up to run a match, I knew I would enter it and it would be as you described in your post. A very doable and fun event!
When I put on a match, questions were always answered to the best of my ability. Most of my questions were answered not by either of you but people that have different opinions. This is a forum. I expect that. Larry answered my question about slugs at 125 yds. I will have to shoot at that distance to see if my gun is capable of that. good to know that information.
One more Question. Is a 125 yd. slug shot doable?
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I, as well, think it is riduculous to try and give out distances to targets before the match. Stage design wil change due to conditions on the range, space availabilty etc..(anyone who is a match director or stage designer knows and undeestands this)
People should focus on shooting at a variety of different ranges and positions....those who do, tend to be the ones that win matches, IMHO.
This will be my first major 3 Gun match, and I can't wait...unfortunately, I don't have anywhere to practice 450 yard rifle shots...sucks to be Canadian, and not allowed to shoot our AR's on private property...range use only.
Thanks to the organizers of this match, I am sure it will be fantastic!
If you don't think it is important to know the distance to targets then why are you sorry that you can,t practice those 450 yd. shots that you know you are going to be have to make at the FNH match?
I think it was mid-way through
"People should focus on shooting at a variety of different ranges and positions...."
Ideally, people know their ballistics anywhere from 0-500 yards if they have the facility for that. If you do, knowing the actual ranges for the match is a moot point since you'll know all your bullet drops. If you don't have the facility for that, knowing the actual ranges is still a moot point because you can't practice them anyways.
I know my handgun to 50y, slugs to 100y and rifle to 300y. Beyond that with the rifle and I have to rely on ballistic tables or on-the-fly corrections. Having said that, it doesn't mean I will make these shots in the match
After huffing and puffing through a stage, trying to make even a 200y rifle shot can be tricky.
I agree with your post but, now that Larry has mentioned 125 yd. slug targets, I would bet that the smart shooter would practice those shots before going to the match.
Rifle, I don't care about distance. Because of the accuracy problems with slugs, I like at least a good guess on
distance and size of the target.
I have no idea where to hold on a 125 yd target with my shotgun. Now I can find out before the match.
That is the purpose of my original question.
Knowing is half the battle!!!
Thank you!!
Great videos as usual!
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I, as well, think it is riduculous to try and give out distances to targets before the match. Stage design wil change due to conditions on the range, space availabilty etc..(anyone who is a match director or stage designer knows and undeestands this)
People should focus on shooting at a variety of different ranges and positions....those who do, tend to be the ones that win matches, IMHO.
This will be my first major 3 Gun match, and I can't wait...unfortunately, I don't have anywhere to practice 450 yard rifle shots...sucks to be Canadian, and not allowed to shoot our AR's on private property...range use only.
Thanks to the organizers of this match, I am sure it will be fantastic!
If you don't think it is important to know the distance to targets then why are you sorry that you can,t practice those 450 yd. shots that you know you are going to be have to make at the FNH match?
I think it was mid-way through
"People should focus on shooting at a variety of different ranges and positions...."
Ideally, people know their ballistics anywhere from 0-500 yards if they have the facility for that. If you do, knowing the actual ranges for the match is a moot point since you'll know all your bullet drops. If you don't have the facility for that, knowing the actual ranges is still a moot point because you can't practice them anyways.
I know my handgun to 50y, slugs to 100y and rifle to 300y. Beyond that with the rifle and I have to rely on ballistic tables or on-the-fly corrections. Having said that, it doesn't mean I will make these shots in the match
After huffing and puffing through a stage, trying to make even a 200y rifle shot can be tricky.
I agree with your post but, now that Larry has mentioned 125 yd. slug targets, I would bet that the smart shooter would practice those shots before going to the match.
Rifle, I don't care about distance. Because of the accuracy problems with slugs, I like at least a good guess on
distance and size of the target.
I have no idea where to hold on a 125 yd target with my shotgun. Now I can find out before the match.
That is the purpose of my original question.
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I, as well, think it is riduculous to try and give out distances to targets before the match. Stage design wil change due to conditions on the range, space availabilty etc..(anyone who is a match director or stage designer knows and undeestands this)
People should focus on shooting at a variety of different ranges and positions....those who do, tend to be the ones that win matches, IMHO.
This will be my first major 3 Gun match, and I can't wait...unfortunately, I don't have anywhere to practice 450 yard rifle shots...sucks to be Canadian, and not allowed to shoot our AR's on private property...range use only.
Thanks to the organizers of this match, I am sure it will be fantastic!
If you don't think it is important to know the distance to targets then why are you sorry that you can,t practice those 450 yd. shots that you know you are going to be have to make at the FNH match?
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You don't know Larry do you? His smarta$$ answer will be somewhere between your muzzle and infinity, and they will be things you shoot at.
Howard, that is an awesome answer....let's go with that!
Yes that's a cool answer but when you are paying big bucks to travel to and enter big matches its nice to get decent information on what you have to shoot at.
I have run good size matches and have always given accurate information to any question a shooter asks.
To me that's what most people call courtesy.
OK so here you go, know your shot pattern from 10 yards to 22 yards, know you rifle dope from 3 feet to 450 yards, know how much your handgun bullet drops from 3 feet to 50 yards and of course the big question is the slugs, know your drop from 25 yards to 125 yards.
What happened to the day of knowing all of this before you go to any match. I guess we have become accustom to having everything provided for us it takes the work out of it. Oh yea I guess someone did that for you! Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one, I'm a small business owner.
To be quite honest, until I am setting the stages up, I can only give you approximate. I set stages up by feel and what I think is doable for everyone. So until it is actually on the ground, exact distances will not be known. Sorry I could not tell you the exact distances.
You can hate me but I will not lock myself in for someone to have a complaint later.
Larry
Thanks Larry,
At least I now have an idea of what to practice.
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You don't know Larry do you? His smarta$$ answer will be somewhere between your muzzle and infinity, and they will be things you shoot at.
Howard, that is an awesome answer....let's go with that!
Yes that's a cool answer but when you are paying big bucks to travel to and enter big matches its nice to get decent information on what you have to shoot at.
I have run good size matches and have always given accurate information to any question a shooter asks.
To me that's what most people call courtesy.
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Ben and Jerremy DON'T make the heavy plates, they make the really nice ones that have the tab in front that prevent turning, wish we had had more of them! Also not to take anything away from Gary and Trap The Am stage 7 was beiny run by the R.O.s and Me until 8:30 p.m. to catch it back up.
None turning plate with tab is a great design. No more 90 degree plates
That design has been around for at least the past seventeen years that I have been shooting!!!!
As per my other posts, you pay big money to shoot these matches, you should be shooting at correctly made plate stands
so you don't have to shoot at turning plates! You hit them hard enough to turn them. That is a solid hit in my book.
Does not matter if it's a pistol, rifle or shotgun.
It's a very cheap easy fix on any plate stand I have ever seen.
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Hey all,
My SX2 just has a bead on it, and I'm having trouble hitting slugs at distance. I used to have rear fiber optic beads on it, but can't seem to find them anymore. Anyway, I want to put a fold up rear sight on it or something, but was wondering what ya'll use. I tried to get a 10/22 sight out of an old barrel, and just ended up smashing it to pieces instead.
I don't get it.
I installed a Williams adjustable peep sight on my SG. I take out the small aperture to shoot bird shot.
I put the small aperture back in to shoot slugs.
I was told I could not do that because it was reconfiguring the gun and would be put in open class.
Where is that different than using a fold up or down leaf sight that a lot of shooters use.
That is reconfiguring your gun.
Please don't tell me it is because you are taking it off and then putting it back on.
You are reconfiguring your gun every time you change chokes!!
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How far away are the slug targets and what will they be?
Thanks
Dave,
My experience with slug targets and distance is "smaller than I want, and about 20 yards too far"
That is the exact reason I am asking Dan!
I am working on a better aiming system on my SG.
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On September 2nd, Pardoe will run a multigun match in their pistol and rifle pits. 6-7 stages, round count is Rifle 150, handgun 150, shotgun birdshot 100 and 10 slugs (minimum always bring extra).
Please be at the range at 8:30am for sign up. Shooters meeting at 9:00am, then squad up and start shooting shortly thereafter. No walk on's due to the time involved in running a multigun match, cost will be $25. Maximum rifle distance 300 yards.
For those who plan on attending the match, please email Sam at sam.brown@roadrunner.com. Pistol shooters are welcome bring A LOT of ammo, cost will be the same.
Is the match going to happen?
It has been canceled in past years.
I have a motel and a five hour drive so I need to know!!!
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Have a few questions,
1) What type of slings are we requiring for the AR and Shotgun when they are to be slung? 2point, Single Point ETC? Could not find it in the ruless?
2) What about 180 rule when the Rifle or Shotgun is slung when you are grounding or picking up a dropped mag or such? ( kind of was ask previously but no answer was given)
Answer to #1 - Whatever type of sling you would like to use.
Answer to #2 - Unslinging an empty weapon as required in the course of fire will NOT result in a match DQ for violation of the 180 degree rule.
How far away are the slug targets and what will they be?
Thanks
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Larry, could you address the sling question?
Thanks
Sure you will need them and if a gun requires it to be slung at the start, you must have it on at the start, after that you can use it or safely ground it.
Hope that answers the sling question.
Larry,
How far and what is the size of the shotgun targets?
Thanks
Sorry, I meant to ask about slugs.
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Larry, could you address the sling question?
Thanks
Sure you will need them and if a gun requires it to be slung at the start, you must have it on at the start, after that you can use it or safely ground it.
Hope that answers the sling question.
Larry,
How far and what is the size of the shotgun targets?
Thanks
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This was my first season going to 3-gun club matches. The matches I went to were at the same club. I had never attended a match and had only seen matches online and on youtube.
A lot of the stages were designed where you could only shoot the stage using your weak hand, or were only allowed to shoot one handed and on your knees and then move to prone. They would set rules like, you had to have a sling on your rifle...but then would allow some people to not have a sling. Some people were told to shoot the course in a specific order, and then another group was told to shoot it in a COMPLETELY different order - which would end up being faster, thus scoring higher. You were told that you had to shoot X amount of targets, but then later told you were DQ'd because you weren't fast enough, thus your hits didn't count. The rules seemed vague most of the time, and only told what I was "supposed" to have done after the score were released. At the beginning of each stage, I was always asked "You understand the course?" I would always ask for it to be explained to me. But....some "secret" and unique rule to that stage always seemed to come about after the fact.
By the end of this season, I feel like I was in a trick-shoot competition and always uncertain whether someone else was "allowed" to change the rules as they went along.
After all that....don't get me wrong...All in all, the shoots were fun. I am hyped about training in the off-season and looking forward to next year, but is this how the majority of 3-gun shoots operate?
Sounds like any big match I have ever attended!
Just kidding!
After thinking about it, maybe not kidding!
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If you go to the IPSC shotgun rules and regs, in the appendix you will find a design for a falling steel plate that can't turn...ever, and it falls when hit with enough shot no matter where it is hit. I have enjoyed these targets since 2003 when I shoot over-seas...but like the "new fangled" load 2 vests and belts (also encountered in 2003 over-seas) I guess it takes a long time for stuff to travel back to the U.S.
Thank you Kurt for enforcing my post that instead of shooting the stand etc. to make a plate fall,
why not fix the problem with a simple strip of steel on the front of the plate stand.
Anyone who has shot at pistol matches in the last 20 years has seen these stands as standard procedure.
A very cheap easy fix on most any stand I have ever seen.
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You said that you were going to have to do math if you were going to use 3 power for a longer shot earlier..... Isn't it a FFP scope meaning the subtentions would remain constant no matter what magnification was used.......ala no math required.
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2
This scope is Second Focal Plain. so the reticle changes in size as the scope zooms. Foc instance the 400 yard bar at 6X is 5.6 MOA down If we set the scope to 3X the 400 yard Bar would only be 2.8 MOA down
I did not have much time at the range yesterday, I only did about 1/2 what I wanted to do. But I am 90% sold on this scope , my 10% reservation is that I like the old EBR reticle in the 1-4 FFP so much more. with the reticle getting smaller in the SFP 1-6 I fined the 500 and 600 bar not as fast to fined. The thing that balances that is that it will not cover as much of the target area as the old reticle.
The load I used past 300 yards was 69gr Sierra with 24.5 Varget at 2,750FPS = I will bump up my load a bit, but having the bullets hit just under the bar at 500 yards was not distracting at all. It was cool to see the marks on the steel with -Lots- of feed-back through the scope.
If a shooter spends the Dime to get a great upper like the JP this scope is a perfect match. Funny how my sight in groups shrunk after mounting this.
I forgot, when I was doing my sight-in at 200 yards on paper, after the third shot I could see my group develop. the other thing that was kinda cool was doing a bore sighting at home when I mounted the scope and going strait to a 160 target for my first shot hitting the center of a steel gong. I never had bore sighting get so close.
For some reason I was thinking it was a FFP scope.
Finding the holds shouldn't be too hard.
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2
If the reticle changes when going from 1 to 6 it is a FFP scope.
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Patrick (I gotta get my post count up so people think I know something) Kelley
Pat,
Some of us look at major match results, not post counts.
That,s funny Dan!
Keep up the good work!
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I have been shooting 3 gun for awhile and at the big matches if you ask for md to grant reshoot on turned steel good luck. This is not uspsa. Steel must fall to score means what it says. Slow down and hit it. Easy solution hit the target and don't whine when ya miss it. We have some new bases that are much smaller and they can't spin. But I am not gonna change or redo the 100 or so I have already.
This. I have seen a few of these but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Hit it good, knock it down, and if it doesnt take your lumps. It seems to me it happens more with guys using shorter barrels with little or no choke.
I have always seen stage descriptions that specify "steel must fall".
Whining isnt pretty.
We have had as much of an issue with pistols too. Its a range equipment malfunction really.
Pat
Pistols/Shotguns Apples/Oranges
Not sure how many times we shoot the same stage with each gun. Just take out the paper targets. Either way its a range equipment error and under USPSA rules it would be a re shoot. I understand thats a pain so I modified it the way I described with the RO calling it a hit and having the shooter move on. If the target can't be engaged and should have fell its a prop problem not a shooter one. Thats just my take on it. I like giving the benefit to the shooter. Not really into screwing them with what I consider an unfair penalty.
Pat
Personaly I dont like uspsa rules for 3 gun. But that is a different discussion. I dont really care if the ruling is if its turned its a hit. So long as I know going into the match and the rule is consistant. If you dont just say steel must fall then you possible get into a situatuion of "well, the steel is turned and I thought it was good" when the steel isnt a full 90 degrees but maybe 80 degrees. Then you get into a position where someone has to decide if its spun far enough or not. Then comes arbitration. Thats why I like to see it fall or not. Pretty clear cut and no room for argument. But if I show up at a match and I know what the rule is to start I just deal with it. I cant say its ever happened to me.
Not picking on you Kent but a sideways plate will happen to you at some point even if you have taken the time to
properly choke your gun, center the target but the plate turned sideways because the stand was not designed properly.
You pay a big entry fee, pay to get there, pay for a motel, pay to eat, then are taken out of the match competitively
because plates you have centered up do not fall when hit because the stands were not designed properly.
It bothers me because it is easy to fix this problem. I don't get it that everyone seems to except this when there is a lot at stake.
Most places I shoot it is a 10 sec penalty to leave a plate standing. One or two of them and you are out
of it!!
Shooting at the stand does not always work and why should you have to do that anyway?
That is not fair to any shooter who has paid thrir dues to enter this match
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That Wilson barrel weighs 57 ounches which is way too heavy. You want your barrel weight to be about 30 to 35 ounches.
The DPMS barrel is also a pig. Find a medium contour barrel like this.
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php
or this.
Both of my "DPMS PIGS" shoot 1 moa out to 400 yds with 55 Noslers.
I do not have a range to shoot any farther.
Got them from Midway two years ago for $165 each.
Don't get caught up in the "trend" for light weight barrels and AR's
Way to wippy in my opinion.
For starters the barrels shown are not a light weight design but rather medium contour barrels which are perfect for the game. The heavy barrels while they are accurate are way way to heavy to shoot fast and well on 99% of the stages we typically shoot in this sport. There are a lot more shots at 100 and in than at 400.
Pat
They might be to heavy for you but not for me.
Different strokes for different folks.
True but there is a reason most shooters especially the pro's are not lugging those heavy barrels around and their winning. I tried a heavy barrel for a time and found you give up way too much on the sort to medium course for the time you may gain on the long ones.
That is your opinion and I have mine.
That is what a forum is all about.
Have a good day.
After thinking about it, I have to disagree with you about long range stages not being as important as the 15 to 30 second hosers.
In my experience with myself and watching others, I have watched lots of people take themselves out of competition by timing out on the long range stages with failure to engage and miss penalties.
My opinon.
I forgot to tell you.
Great videos.
Looks like you put on some fun matches!
Have a good one.
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That Wilson barrel weighs 57 ounches which is way too heavy. You want your barrel weight to be about 30 to 35 ounches.
The DPMS barrel is also a pig. Find a medium contour barrel like this.
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php
or this.
Both of my "DPMS PIGS" shoot 1 moa out to 400 yds with 55 Noslers.
I do not have a range to shoot any farther.
Got them from Midway two years ago for $165 each.
Don't get caught up in the "trend" for light weight barrels and AR's
Way to wippy in my opinion.
For starters the barrels shown are not a light weight design but rather medium contour barrels which are perfect for the game. The heavy barrels while they are accurate are way way to heavy to shoot fast and well on 99% of the stages we typically shoot in this sport. There are a lot more shots at 100 and in than at 400.
Pat
They might be to heavy for you but not for me.
Different strokes for different folks.
True but there is a reason most shooters especially the pro's are not lugging those heavy barrels around and their winning. I tried a heavy barrel for a time and found you give up way too much on the sort to medium course for the time you may gain on the long ones.
That is your opinion and I have mine.
That is what a forum is all about.
Have a good day.
After thinking about it, I have to disagree with you about long range stages not being as important as the 15 to 30 second hosers.
In my experience with myself and watching others, I have watched lots of people take themselves out of competition by timing out on the long range stages with failure to engage and miss penalties.
My opinon.
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That Wilson barrel weighs 57 ounches which is way too heavy. You want your barrel weight to be about 30 to 35 ounches.
The DPMS barrel is also a pig. Find a medium contour barrel like this.
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php
or this.
Both of my "DPMS PIGS" shoot 1 moa out to 400 yds with 55 Noslers.
I do not have a range to shoot any farther.
Got them from Midway two years ago for $165 each.
Don't get caught up in the "trend" for light weight barrels and AR's
Way to wippy in my opinion.
For starters the barrels shown are not a light weight design but rather medium contour barrels which are perfect for the game. The heavy barrels while they are accurate are way way to heavy to shoot fast and well on 99% of the stages we typically shoot in this sport. There are a lot more shots at 100 and in than at 400.
Pat
They might be to heavy for you but not for me.
Different strokes for different folks.
True but there is a reason most shooters especially the pro's are not lugging those heavy barrels around and their winning. I tried a heavy barrel for a time and found you give up way too much on the sort to medium course for the time you may gain on the long ones.
That is your opinion and I have mine.
That is what a forum is all about.
Have a good day.
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That Wilson barrel weighs 57 ounches which is way too heavy. You want your barrel weight to be about 30 to 35 ounches.
The DPMS barrel is also a pig. Find a medium contour barrel like this.
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php
or this.
Both of my "DPMS PIGS" shoot 1 moa out to 400 yds with 55 Noslers.
I do not have a range to shoot any farther.
Got them from Midway two years ago for $165 each.
Don't get caught up in the "trend" for light weight barrels and AR's
Way to wippy in my opinion.
For starters the barrels shown are not a light weight design but rather medium contour barrels which are perfect for the game. The heavy barrels while they are accurate are way way to heavy to shoot fast and well on 99% of the stages we typically shoot in this sport. There are a lot more shots at 100 and in than at 400.
Pat
They might be to heavy for you but not for me.
Different strokes for different folks.
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That Wilson barrel weighs 57 ounches which is way too heavy. You want your barrel weight to be about 30 to 35 ounches.
The DPMS barrel is also a pig. Find a medium contour barrel like this.
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php
or this.
Both of my "DPMS PIGS" shoot 1 moa out to 400 yds with 55 Noslers.
I do not have a range to shoot any farther.
Got them from Midway two years ago for $165 each.
Don't get caught up in the "trend" for light weight barrels and AR's
Way to wippy in my opinion.
Shotgun plate turned 90degrees
in Rifle & Shotgun - Technique
Posted
Perfect example of how a turned plate can cost you big time.
If you hit it enough to turn it, more than likely you had enough pellets on it to knock it off of a properly designed stand.