Pistol does not shoot lead well

[mprasek]

I would like some help deciphering this situation that happened tonight.

Loading Once-fired 45ACP brass with 4.0gr Titegroup, with a lead 200 grain semi-wadcutter. OAL 1.225

Chronograph from my autoloader (Tanfoglio Witness) gave 450 fps instead of the expected 800 fps.

230 grain hardball used to check chrono out of same gun gave 924 fps (intentionally hot load).

Next lead bullet gave 454 fps.

Same lead bullet and load out of a Glock 45 gave 824fps.

Gun has about 800 rounds through it. All jacketed bullets give good performance.

Any ideas?

Thanks for the help.

[gm iprod]

To verify chronograph was operating correctly i check with std velocity 22lr ammo and a bolt action rifle. Then shoot a ten shot group.

This ensures that you have not made a setup error on your chrono and of you set it up properly it is in fact operation within specs.

Get the barrel diameter checked. Then ensure projectiles are correct for barrel i.e. .001" - .0015" over barrel groove diameter.

Get the same ammo fired through at least two other guns (not owned by you) and verified that the velocity is or is not correct.

Pull bullets carefully and see if they are changing size or shape once they are reloaded.

Get some factory ammo, new not remanufactured, by a reputable US manufacturer. eg Winchester Federal CCI Remington Blackhills and a few others, put that through your firearm.

I am guessing that the projectiles are somewhat under sized, either before you loaded them or as a result of the reloading process.

Check your crimp, not too much.

What make of projectiles, coated or uncoated, plated. More details if you can.

4.8gr = 877, at a guess .8grain reduction in powder charge should have reduced the velocity by about 200 fps or a little less (650 - 700fps expected), so by my reckoning you are missing some 200 fps!

[open17]

Check your load data. 4.0 Titegroup with a 200 gr bullet sounds a bit light.

Typical Titegroup loads with a 230 gr bullet seem to run 4.0-4.2.

With a 200 gr RN I load 5.0 gr titegroup to make major out of a 5"

1911. YMMV.

[justforfun]

Try moving your chrono screens farther from your shooting position. Sometimes with lead bullets the smoke messes with the sensors if there too close.

[soundwave]

On a side note, consider another powder TG and lead can be extremely smokey. Ask me how I know

[granderojo]

Out of the Kart barrel in my 5" 1911 it takes 5.1 gr of TG behind a 200 SWC moly coated to make major PF. (875fps=177pf). Glock barrelss make more power than others. Saw that at the chrono at match this summer. Same rounds that wouldn't make PF out of a 5" 9mm 1911 made it w/some to spare out of the shooters Glock 34.

[AriM]

Out of the Kart barrel in my 5" 1911 it takes 5.1 gr of TG behind a 200 SWC moly coated to make major PF. (875fps=177pf). Glock barrelss make more power than others. Saw that at the chrono at match this summer. Same rounds that wouldn't make PF out of a 5" 9mm 1911 made it w/some to spare out of the shooters Glock 34.

wouldn't a 200gn projectile at 875fps, equal 175 pf ?

[AriM]

mod. please delete this....it's double posting on me again grrrrr EDIT

Edited December 11, 2009 by AriM

[Duane Thomas]

You should be able to do that yourself, within three days of posting, after which that ability goes away.

[Duane Thomas]

Try moving your chrono screens farther from your shooting position. Sometimes with lead bullets the smoke messes with the sensors if there too close.

This is the key. How far away are you setting up your skyscreens? Often a chrono will get faulty readings if the gun is too close to the screens when firing. I set up 10 feet away. I really can't buy a circa 400 fps velocity difference in this instance. It HAS to be a chrono error.

Go back to the range, set up your skyscreens a decent distance away, and I'll bet you that load magically picks up 400 or so fps out of your Witness.

[Bongo Boy]

This is a quote from the Nov 2006 issue of Guns Magazine, Charles Petty:

New Standard

My standard .45 prinking load is now 4 grains of Titegroup with the 200-grain LSWC. This gives around 750 fps and is pleasingly accurate. I am often asked what weight recoil spring I use to get guns to run with the light load and I'll let you in on a little secret. There is no need to change springs. Good guns with standard springs rarely fail to cycle with target-velocity loads.

What surprises me most is that you're getting consistent readings. I'd expect that, if there's an error due to placement of the chrono, the numbers would be all over the place. Innaresting!

[gm iprod]

What surprises me most is that you're getting consistent readings. I'd expect that, if there's an error due to placement of the chrono, the numbers would be all over the place. Innaresting!

I was told by the guy who got me into reloading and then again by another guy who got me into pistol shooting, how to set up a chronograph properly, the second guy was unsure of my ability and gave me the once over.

Set them at least 3M out if using a hot load or something that smokes a bit. Check your chronograph is working properly with a 22lr calibre rifle and known ammo. This was really important back in the dim dark ages of when I started out. Now, not so important, but I do it anyways.

If there is anything unexpected with your readings you have to ensure that it is NOT the chrono.

New Standard

My standard .45 prinking load is now 4 grains of Titegroup with the 200-grain LSWC. This gives around 750 fps and is pleasingly accurate. I am often asked what weight recoil spring I use to get guns to run with the light load and I'll let you in on a little secret. There is no need to change springs. Good guns with standard springs rarely fail to cycle with target-velocity loads.

I have found the same with my Kimber, except we went really low and starting dropping cases into our top pocket, sometimes, othertimes it went down the front of your shirt, that was fun!!!

[CocoBolo]

Most SWC's are loaded with about a thumbnail of full diameter above the case Rim. In the case of my Preecision SWC's it comes out 1.260. Bullet diameter should be @.452.

TightGroup burns very hot feel your gun after a few shots, that's where the smoke comes from. I used TightGroup with jacketed 200gr in 40 at 4.2gr so 4.0 gr even in the 45 sounds like enough to get it moving. I tried a lot of powders in 45 and my personal preference with 200gr SWC is Clays at 4.2-4.3gr. WST at 4.7-4.8gr will make major also with a 200gr SWC.

It is possible to over crimp a lead bullet making its diameter under size and the gas escapes around the bullet instead of pushing it out. If you are using a Lee FCD to crimp this will undersize the bullet use only a taper crimp die on lead or moly bullets.

[hovbuild]

Most SWC's are loaded with about a thumbnail of full diameter above the case Rim. In the case of my Preecision SWC's it comes out 1.260. Bullet diameter should be @.452.

TightGroup burns very hot feel your gun after a few shots, that's where the smoke comes from. I used TightGroup with jacketed 200gr in 40 at 4.2gr so 4.0 gr even in the 45 sounds like enough to get it moving. I tried a lot of powders in 45 and my personal preference with 200gr SWC is Clays at 4.2-4.3gr. WST at 4.7-4.8gr will make major also with a 200gr SWC.

It is possible to over crimp a lead bullet making its diameter under size and the gas escapes around the bullet instead of pushing it out. If you are using a Lee FCD to crimp this will undersize the bullet use only a taper crimp die on lead or moly bullets.

I have loaded maybe 10000 rounds of 200 swc and 255 swc and used the FCD from lee. I have not seen any "under sizing" of the lead bullets using the crimp die from FCD. My crimps are .471-.470. I would like some clarification on how this die is under sizing the bullet. I also re size all my store bought lead with a .452 sizer before loading them. Most cast bullets can be inconsistent.

Thanks Bill

[CocoBolo]

Bill - I was using the Lee FCD and was getting a lot of build up after 50 shots the gun was not accurate. I called Precision Bullets and they told me to stop using the FCD as it would udersize the bullet. I followed their advise and no more fowling and buildup. This was on a 40 not a 45 but I followed same advice in advance on 45. I use a taper crimp die.

Here is what their web site says:

RELOADING TIPS

Make sure to have a good bell on the case so not to shave off the coating during the seating process.

Do not seat and crimp the bullets in the same die. Use a separate taper crimp die.

We highly recommend Dillon reloading equipment.

Do not use a roll crimp or Lee Factory Taper Crimp Dies.

The roll crimp will cut through the coating. You must use a taper crimp die.

The Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die will undersize the bullets causing accuracy and fouling problems.

Most of the time a heavier crimp will work better.

Top of Page

http://www.precisionbullets.com/ got to the FAQ section.

[hovbuild]

Bill - I was using the Lee FCD and was getting a lot of build up after 50 shots the gun was not accurate. I called Precision Bullets and they told me to stop using the FCD as it would udersize the bullet. I followed their advise and no more fowling and buildup. This was on a 40 not a 45 but I followed same advice in advance on 45. I use a taper crimp die.

Here is what their web site says:

RELOADING TIPS

Make sure to have a good bell on the case so not to shave off the coating during the seating process.

Do not seat and crimp the bullets in the same die. Use a separate taper crimp die.

We highly recommend Dillon reloading equipment.

Do not use a roll crimp or Lee Factory Taper Crimp Dies.

The roll crimp will cut through the coating. You must use a taper crimp die.

The Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die will undersize the bullets causing accuracy and fouling problems.

Most of the time a heavier crimp will work better.

Top of Page

http://www.precisionbullets.com/ got to the FAQ section.

Cool Thanks, but I still don't quite understand the part of the lft re sizing the bullet. Are they talking the lead head or the cartridge as a whole. As I stated I re size all my lead bullets before I load them. Bell the casing a bit and then set up the taper crimp to remove the belling. How in the world does this change the size of the lead bullet. I measure them after and they are all .452 and even when I pull the bullet there in no evidence of the size of the bullet being smaller. I do a lot of data work with my loads and shoot pins with a 255 swc and BE using 200swc. Some days I shoot 400 rounds and don't really notice any extra fouling and or inaccuracy's. In the 255 I use unique and can go 300-600 rounds before it needs a cleaning.

I'll load up some using a different taper die and compare them with the lfd. I'll shoot 100 of each cleaning before using the second 100. Compare FPS and groups.

I appreciate the help but having a hard time grasping the statements made by precision bullets. I don't use their bullets or I should say I never had the chance too.

[redmanfixit]

Check the lighting angles and conditions on your chrono as well as the distance. The ideal set up is diffuse light projected directly down on the sky screens from overhead. When attending national level matches and testing ammo for power factor, you see the chrono in a sonnetube with artificial lighting in the tube. I suggest a 12v dc fluorescent fixture as is often used for interior lighting the cargo area of a service van. (No, there is no issue with "flicker" as the ballast is electronic) These are easy to find and not too expensive.

Eat at Joe's, 10,000 flies can't be wrong!