NIGHTFORCE NXS vs Burris XTR14

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks again, guys.

But like I mentioned before, it is OK that the illuminated circle and MOA dot may NOT be totally visable during daylight. I've never shot with an illuminated reticle before, so no great loss.

So long as the clarity is exceptional, Ill be as happy as a pig rollin in doo-doo.

And by the way (not being sarcastic), isn't that why is the NF scope so expensive...because the quality of it's glass?

And if that's the case, I deduced that the glass on the NF would be better than the latter three I mentioned above. (Trijicon, Burris, and Meopta).

I am sure that the others have great glass, and I am pretty sure that at this level of glass our eyes may not totally discern the slight difference in quality...but are they "equal" to the NF quality?

Just curious.

Like I stated above - for me, at this price, and with my waning eyesight, I would really prefer a razor-clear quality of glass over anything else. Especially if having to shot at the farther distances.

I also checked-out the Feeedon Gunworks website, but I didn't find anything NF there.

Did I miss something? And if I did, are the prices right? (I found a NF scope at US ARMORMENT for $1,154.00).

In Christ: Raymond

Reference: http://usarmorment.com/nightforce-nxs-14x2...pact-p-656.html

Edited August 19, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[cold]

If your spending the money for a nf, seriously consider the z6i at leo pricing. Its a bit easier to swallow.

[uscbigdawg]

Ray - I think what Tod (00bullit) and I are saying is the glass on the Meopta is comparable to the NF. As for info on Freedom Gunworks, you're better calling Bobby to get info on scope pricing as they're not on the website...yet.

Rich

[kgunz11]

http://usarmorment.com/nightforce-nxs-14x2...pact-p-656.html

US Armorment is not a NF stocking dealer, and I'd bet my last dollar they don't have that scope in stock, but almost no one else does either, including myself. The scope is listed below MAP and NF has asked them to correct the pricing but it seems their webmaster is MIA. NF is aggressively trying to get caught up on production with these units.

I'm not trying to make this a contest, or turn it into an advertisement for my business, so don't get me wrong. I personally think the NF line of scopes are the best on the planet for a number of reasons. You don't hear about one going down often and when you do, you get to speak with someone who speaks fluent English. You also get warranty work done here in the US, as the scopes are built here. The glass is as good as any out there, and the price is competitive with the quality of product they offer. Not to mention the lifetime warranty.

[00bullitt]

Raymond......I'll give it one last shot as I think you are making a mistake on choosing the NF for the reasons you mention. If its your eyesight you are worrying about.....get the Swarovski Z6i. If you are willing to spend what the NF costs.....the Z6i is not far off if you purchase off of SWFA Samplelist. Thats where one of mine came from and I saved about $800. But also.....the quality and clarity with the addition of the daytime visible illuminated reticle of the Meopta at half the price of the NF is extremely hard to beat. NF makes great optics as KGunz11 pointed out and they cost so much because they are made in the USA and carry an awesome warranty and their quality control is superb. And yes.....I find their precision riflescopes to be what I consider the best and tough as nails to boot. But....in my humble opinion......there are better options available for high quality low power glass that we use for 3 gun.

Seriously consider the Z6 off Samplelist as Cold suggested. For just a little more money and 2x more magnification......you will be getting the absolute cream of the crop that totally meets and exceeds all your needs.

[cold]

Raymond......I'll give it one last shot as I think you are making a mistake on choosing the NF for the reasons you mention. If its your eyesight you are worrying about.....get the Swarovski Z6i. If you are willing to spend what the NF costs.....the Z6i is not far off if you purchase off of SWFA Samplelist. Thats where one of mine came from and I saved about $800. But also.....the quality and clarity with the addition of the daytime visible illuminated reticle of the Meopta at half the price of the NF is extremely hard to beat. NF makes great optics as KGunz11 pointed out and they cost so much because they are made in the USA and carry an awesome warranty and their quality control is superb. And yes.....I find their precision riflescopes to be what I consider the best and tough as nails to boot. But....in my humble opinion......there are better options available for high quality low power glass that we use for 3 gun.

Seriously consider the Z6 off Samplelist as Cold suggested. For just a little more money and 2x more magnification......you will be getting the absolute cream of the crop that totally meets and exceeds all your needs.

I checked the sample list, but if you cannot find one there, call Swaro, they are in Mass. They will give you LEO pricing on the Z6i, if your not LE, simply find someone who is and have them order it for you. If you need someone to order it for you, shoot me an IM. LEO pricing for he Z6i 1-6x24 ill CD is 1700 shipped.

Lastly, I am a bit of an Optics snob, I sold optics for Cabelas while in college in Texas, so I got to look through lots of stuff, Meopta, Kahles, Swaro, Zeiss, Trijicon, etc etc etc Meopta is great for the money, but if your going to spend the $ on NF, you are in my mind, making a mistake by not considering the Z6 at LEO pricing.

Nightforce's optical glass comes from Japan (at least last I knew when I spoke to Rich Gearhart at SHOT about getting a NF for my fathers 50BMG), and while Vietnam's sand is consider by far and way to be the finest, and Japan's is very good in that realm, I will continue to stick with the Euro optics until I see the Japanese glass surpass them. Swaro's glass is not just great their engineers spent a ton of time on their 2 recent patented coating, SwaroBright and SwaroDur. Neither of which anyone else has been able to replicate. Not Zeiss, Leica nor USO or NF has anything like it. Again last I knew. Combined the light gathering of the glass, the lead free/arsnic free glass and and overall enhancement by the aforemenioned coatings has been demo'd to be my Swaro at both Cabelas, at the Dallas Safari Club show and at SHOT. Really if you look at the NF and Z6 1x6 side by side, its a no brainer (to me).

My thoughts on the matter.

Edited August 19, 2009 by cold

[RaymondMillbrae]

Wow...a Swarovski for $500.00 less than retail

Is something wrong with them?

And if I purchase it, and something is wrong with it, will Swarovski honor their warranty with me?

In Christ: Raymond

Edited August 19, 2009 by 00bullitt

[cold]

No.... theres not. Read above.

[RaymondMillbrae]

No.... theres not. Read above.

"No"...there's nothing wrong with them.

"No"...they will not honor their warranty.

"No"...I am not an illegal alien.

Can you be a bit more specific?

Thanks!!!!!!!

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Is LE pricing similar to the SWFTA sample list pricing, or better?

Edited August 19, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[kgunz11]

http://swfa.com/Swarovski-1-6x24-Z6i-30mm-...cope-P7602.aspx

Buying something under an LE discount if you are not in Law Enforcement is just outright dishonest and an abuse to the companies that offer the discount to the men and women that protect our streets. Asking someone to purchase it for you to get the discount is no different.

Nightforce's optical glass comes from Japan (at least last I knew when I spoke to Rich Gearhart at SHOT about getting a NF for my fathers 50BMG), and while Vietnam's sand is consider by far and way to be the finest, and Japan's is very good in that realm, I will continue to stick with the Euro optics until I see the Japanese glass surpass them.

Next time you visit SHOT, make it a point to find out where that Euro glass is coming from. Engineers from Karl Zeiss reported that 90% of the glass they use comes from Asia, it's just surface ground and coated in Europe. Look into who all Zeiss is associated with while you're investigating.

Raymond, buy what you want. All of the arguments are compelling. Personally, I'd like to see you buy American, and as someone that has bought European optics, I'd like for you to get good warranty on what you buy if something were to ever happen to it. Find out from SWFA or whomever you purchase from how warranty claims are handled.

IOR notoriously makes some of the best rifle scopes in terms of glass clarity, but they also have quite a reputation concerning warranty claims, and there have been too many to count. I've owned one of them as well, never again.

Good luck with what ever decision you make, and be sure to make the one you wont regret later, what ever that takes.

[cold]

No.... theres not. Read above.

"No"...there's nothing wrong with them.

"No"...they will not honor their warranty.

"No"...I am not an illegal alien?

Can you be a bit more specific?

Thanks!!!!!!!

In Christ: Raymond

Sure,

http://samplelist.com/default.aspx?display...hide_sold=false

The Z6's lised here are still ABOVE LEO pricing and while used still in great shape and will have some sort of Swaro coverage (even if SWFA claims it wont, Swaro will take care of you, I know this from dealing with them while at Cabelas). SWFA is not taking a 500 dollar loss, I know that because I saw Cabelas cost on Swaro optics too SWFA still will make a profit, there is nothing wrong with hem, plus its SWARO, you have an issue, they take care of it, period. Like to hunt, talk to the guys over on accuratereloading.com about Swaro and optics. Really there is no one better and they hit that mark for a reason. I can go on why but it will be a drift from the topic (swaro and DG hunting optics, which the Z6 is technically designed for).While I just recently got a Z6 this will not be my last Swaro opitc, thats for darn sure.

Edited August 19, 2009 by cold

[cold]

http://swfa.com/Swarovski-1-6x24-Z6i-30mm-...cope-P7602.aspx

Buying something under an LE discount if you are not in Law Enforcement is just outright dishonest and an abuse to the companies that offer the discount to the men and women that protect our streets. Asking someone to purchase it for you to get the discount is no different.

Next time you visit SHOT, make it a point to find out where that Euro glass is coming from. Engineers from Karl Zeiss reported that 90% of the glass they use comes from Asia, it's just surface ground and coated in Europe. Look into who all Zeiss is associated with while you're investigating.

As I said before, Asia (Vietnam) has some of the finest sand in the world, and makes great glass, the Z6 optic, again last I knew, was not coming from Asia. The propeitary coating also gathers more light than any currently on the market. With respect to LEO pricing, thats your opinion and see your point, we can agree to disagree. I have no vested interest in the OP's decision but, but I am not going to over pay for something when I am already strapped. He can make that "ethical" decision on his own.

Regardless, you look at the NF 1-4 and Z6 sibe by side, along with the K Dot, IOR M2 4x, TR 24 and what becomes "clear" is fairly obvious. The only model I have not owned of the aforementioned is the NF 1-4, but I have looked through one quite a bit, great glass but again if your paying close to the NF prices, theres no reason not to get the sample list option for a bit more IF you can pop for it, just my thoughts.

Edited August 19, 2009 by cold

[kgunz11]

Read this warranty statement before purchasing.

Swarovski Limited Lifetime Warranty

Thank you for purchasing this instrument and welcome to the world of Swarovski Optik. Since our founding in 1949, the Swarovski community has been

committed to providing an ownership experience, which includes our legendary service that is second to none. We sincerely believe that our optics are the best in the world and put them through rigorous tests to ensure that the name you trust is built to the highest standards. But in the unlikely event that you discover a problem in defects in workmanship or materials, we’ll gladly examine the instrument. Swarovski Optik offers a lifetime warranty on the optical system of our products for products purchased by US residents from an authorized Swarovski Optik North American dealer. Once examined, if it is determined that the optical system is defective we will repair or replace the instrument or defective part. Swarovski Optik warrants all other parts of the instrument for ten years from date of purchase against defects in materials or workmanship, subject to normal use. All electronic components are warranted for two years against defects in materials and workmanship, subject to normal use, from date of purchase. All non-optical products (i.e. accessories, tripods etc.) are warranted for one year from date of purchase. This warranty is void if damage results from unauthorized repairs, accident, alteration, misuse, abuse, neglect, fire, flood or other acts of God. If after the warranty period your instrument needs servicing please call customer service at (800) 426-3089. At Swarovski, we are totally committed to our customer, products and service. Once you have had the pleasure of owning and using our products, we are sure they will become your trusted companions for life.

“Any Swarovski Optik product that is purchased in the U.S. that is not imported by Swarovski Optik North America and not sold to a consumer by an Authorized U.S. Swarovski Optik North America Dealer has no Authorized Warranty.”In the event of a defect, please call customer assistance at (800) 426-3089 to obtain a Service Order Number (SO), which will be used to identify your warranty request through its completion. When you call, our customer service representative will give you instructions as to where to send or take the product for service. Whenever you send or take your product to us, please enclose your name, shipping address, daytime phone number, a brief description of the problem, and a copy of the receipt from an authorized U.S. Swarovski Optik North America dealer. Please write the Service Order Number on the enclosure and on the outside of any packaging. We will determine, at our option, whether to repair or replace the instrument. If the instrument is not covered under the warranty, we will contact you with an estimate of the repair price. Any correspondence should be sent to:

Swarovski Optik N.A. Ltd. • 2 Slater Road • Cranston, RI 02920 or warrantyrepair@swarovskioptik.at

Please do not send us your instrument until we have issued a Service Order Number and instructed you to do so. If you are instructed to return the instrument to us, you are responsible for properly packaging your instrument. You are responsible for insuring the package and assume the risk of loss in transit to us, unless we arrange for transport.

[cold]

Yeah I know their warranty, but guess what... Cabelas sold second hand (READ BARGIN CAVE RETURNED) Swaros all the time... I can tell you from first hand experience, they are not going to tell you to take a hike. In fact lose a turrett cap, they will overnight it to you, anywhere. whether you have your "warranty card on file or not, that is a FACT. As Is aid before go to accuratereloading.com and read the SWARO saves the day stories, its really impressive.

Obviously I have struck a nerve with Mr. Gunz, Im not going to debate my personal experience versus yours with the company all night.

To the OP, good luck, I am sure whatever you buy, suit you once you do some research and look through whatever you narrow it down to.

Edited August 19, 2009 by cold

[kgunz11]

You struck no nerves here, I never worked at a Cabela's, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I do know I would never advise someone to be dishonest or deceptive in making a purchase. I do have an ethical and moral character and I'm not willing to compromise that. If I cannot afford something, I don't really need it. What you are suggesting is no different than stealing in my opinion. I tried to give the OP my opinions, and they differ from yours, and we both have our own reasons. Much to that. :grins:

[kgunz11]

http://swfa.com/Swarovski-1-6x24-Z6i-30mm-...cope-P7602.aspx

Buying something under an LE discount if you are not in Law Enforcement is just outright dishonest and an abuse to the companies that offer the discount to the men and women that protect our streets. Asking someone to purchase it for you to get the discount is no different.

Next time you visit SHOT, make it a point to find out where that Euro glass is coming from. Engineers from Karl Zeiss reported that 90% of the glass they use comes from Asia, it's just surface ground and coated in Europe. Look into who all Zeiss is associated with while you're investigating.

As I said before, Asia (Vietnam) has some of the finest sand in the world, and makes great glass, the Z6 optic, again last I knew, was not coming from Asia.

Do you know of a manufacturer using glass from Vietnam and do you have proof to support that?

(sorry for the hijack)

[cold]

As far as Vietnam and sand being the finest in the world, go look it up, its a geological known their sand is the finest in the world, glass comes from sand... the finer the sand, it helps make good glass... (again last I read).

I never said a mfg uses their sand , so please be careful reading what I wrote, but someone should use it, I'd love to see the optical result... I said I know its the best for glass according to some well known GEOS, Japans is well regarded too as I said before. My optics background does not just come from selling them, my father is a doctor, uses Leica ELE microscopes and operates with some Zeiss optics as well, I was raised on this stuff... its not something new.

Edited August 19, 2009 by cold

[kgunz11]

The thing that makes Japan's glass superior is not how fine the sand is but the volcanic content. This isn't my first day in the optics world either

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks, guys.

Always remember...every time you point your finger at someone else, look down at your pointing hand - and there will be THREE FINGERS pointing back at you!!

All the points were well taken, and I understand that it is MY DECISION "to seperate the wheat from the chaff".

Thanks.

At this moment, it is a no brainer. HANDS DOWN it is the Swarovski Z6i...if I can afford it.

I went to the SWFA website, checked-out their SAMPLE LIST, and submitted the info for my Smitty using their trade-in policy.

One for one trade. My smitty for a Swarovski Z6i.

The way I see it, I wanted to sell my Smitty to fund my new black rifle scope. So hopefully, Lord willing, they will accept my trade.

Like I said, nothing was lost, as my Smitty was gonna be sacrificed to the gods for a scope anyways.

Thanks again for all the tips and leads.

I will let you know the final outcome shortly.

Thanks again!!!

In Christ: Raymond

[uscbigdawg]

I just say get the Meopta and be done with it as you can turn it over if you want to upgrade.

FWIW, Asia is made up of more than Vietnam (speaking as a half Korean kid).

Rich

[00bullitt]

Raymond.....SWFA is a great optics distibutor/dealer to deal with. Buy with confidence that they as well as Swarovski will take care of you if you have a problem. SWFA posts descriptions of their sample list optics and they are as described or better. The one I got was new but the box was opened.

If Swarovski ever started making tactical optics......there is no doubt in my mind they would be the best. But they choose to cater to the hunting crowd. When I went to Africa a few years ago.....every PH out there had Swaros on their rifles as well as spotting scopes and binos. There were a few Zeiss,Leica and Kahles but 95% of the optics on rifles out there were Swaros. They will simply tell you they are the best glass and most rugged optic they have found. They stand up to the abuse from the terrain and recoil of those heavy hitting rifles without issue. And they will tell you....if.....they have an issue......Swarovski bends over backwards to get them up and running. Many times sending out a new scope before receiving the one with an issue. They bend over backwards to keep their customers hunting.

Of all the scopes I have owned in the past 5 years.....the only one I have had issues with were IOR and their CS rated pretty low on my scale but they did finally fix or replace the scopes. The problems were just to repetitive. But as Bobby said.....there glass was first rate. Their mechanics were a little weak though.

As for sand....I don't care where the sand comes from that makes the lenses. I care about the finished product and how it works for me in the role I plan to use it in. I have tried pretty much all of the low power scopes out there while competing in 3 gun. I have certain criteria I want in a scope and relay my findings when asked. I don't recommend them becasue I am loyal to a certain brand but becasue they work exceptionally well and meet the criteria I find necessary for the game in which I play. I have not yet used a scope that even remotely compares to the Swarovski. I don't doubt that someone will eventually release a comparable optic.....but from what I have found.....its not out yet. Is the Z6i perfect?......no but its the best and closest thing right now.

On a final moderator note.....lets keep the arguments and thread drifts down to the utmost minimum. If you feel discussion is warranted that is not pertinent to the discussion at hand....please start a new thread and keep the discussion civil. Lets just try and be respectful and realize that opinions differ and its very possible that more than one person can be right or I will delete and lock posts if needed. Your cooperation is required and appreciated

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, guys,

just a follow-up post.

I went to SWFA for a trade-in quote, and they slapped me in the face!

They were only going to give me a measly $550.00 shekels for a mint condition Smith & Wesson V-Comp. (8-shot, .357 magnum, with UltraDot 4-dot sight).

Pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

So I turned around, posted it on a local site, and sold it within a few hours for $1,300.00.

So now I am back in the game, but at a lowered price. So it looks like the NightForce NXS will be the one.

I know I will probably be kicking myself in the posterior a few months from now, but money is money...and I have already spent too much as it is. (But the wifey understands my sickness. She knew she married an ex-Ranger).

I recently ordered a POF P-415-14-P11SX-223, a complete .223 conversion kit for my Dillon XL650 (with a .223 quick change kit), a Vltor EMOD Mil-Spec stock, a Giessele "Service Rifle Trigger" ($280.00 dollars - OUCH!), 2000 rounds of .223 LC brass, 8-pounds of H335 powder, 7000 rounds of Gold Mountain .223 bullets, and now I'm looking at this scope.

But that's not all.

I will still need a scope mount (I am interested in the LaRue LT104-30), small rifle primers, and a case prep station for my Dillon XL650. (Which includes the Dillon Rapid Trim 1200B, the Dillon Super Swage 600, a tool head and stand to mount them on, and an RCBS expander die).

So as you can see, that "little $500.00 difference" between the NightForce and the Swarovski willl make a difference between steaks for dinner, or McFunky D's.

Like I said, I know I will think about my decision in the future. But then again, the NightForce is a step-up from the original three I had my eyes on. (Trijicon TR24, Meopta, and Burris XTR14). So I still gotta thank my Lord for my blessings, and the little that I can afford. (I know many folks would love to have what I have, but are not able to do so).

So back to the topic of the NF...who has a good deal on them?

I am looking at the LaRue website, and they have the NF scope with the LaRue LT104-30 for $1,327.00. (The scope mount itself is around $200.00, but if purchase in this package it comes out to around $130.00).

So this is where I currently stand.

And by the way - not that it probably matters to anyone - when I hear the words "MADE IN THE USA"..it means something to me!

In Christ: Raymond

Edited August 21, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[uscbigdawg]

[00bullitt]

If you are going with the NF....its hard to beat LaRue's package pricing and their Customer Service is the best in the biz.

But......BUT.......for the price of the Meopta......you can get all that other stuff you want/need and still have a superb scope...................just not quite made in the USA.........so.......Larue sells Meopta as well.......but you seem to have your mind made up.

I will say this as I close. There is a reason that over 50% of competitors at a major 3 gun match run the Meopta KDot and you only see 1 or 2 NF on other rifles and its not because of the price.

ETA: The words "Made in the USA" mean a ton to me......but if the words "Made in Austria" or "Made in Czech Republic" or "Made in Japan" or what have you help me win a match.......well thats a no brainer for me.

[gose]

I can pop up to Jackson Arms this weekend, or next week, if you want to try out a Meopta.