356 TSW

[BigDave]

I just saw a picture of a 356 TSW  cartridge.  Looks alot like the 38 Super or one of the Wonder 9x's.  It looks like a race gun load, why isn't it used (or maybe it is under a different name)???  Just curious.

[ErikW]

It's 9x21.5 and disappeared because USPSA renegged on its approval for Limited and S&W is still sore to this day. Or something like that. Federal actually produced some ammo.

[Carlos]

TSW = Team Smith & Wesson. There is a company called CDNN Investments out of Texas that blew out much of the remaining TSW factory loaded ammo last year.  There is an SW Custom center open gun for sale on the USPSA classifieds that was converted to 9x21 (though the orig. TSW barrel is apparently included in the sale).

I think results from this cartridge were underwhelming for open class; I am unfamiliar with the history of 9mm in limited so I cannot comment on that aspect. As for its relavence today,  I am not aware of anything that the TSW can do that cannot be safely and reliably done with the 9 Supercomp (9x23 Winchester) or the .38 Supercomp (especially since they lowered the PF - no more "Superface" for the .38 shooters).

Now, can anyone explain the difference bt .38 Supercomp and .38 TJ (Todd Jarret)????

[Patrick Sweeney]

Carlos,

What the 356TSW did was fit in a 9mm platform/magazine tube.  As such it held a lot of promise, especially since S&W convinced Federal to load it and submit it for SAAMI spec approval.  All for naught, as USPSA put a big thumb on it and nixed it for Limited.  It wasn't primarily considerd an Open caliber, but if you were building an Open gun on an S&W or a Taurus, it would be a good choice.

Had it been approved for Limited, there wouldn't be 40 cal Limited guns today.

The difference between 38 SC and 38 TJ?  The TJ has a higher-cut extractor groove, to provide clearance where the case bulge would be, and let the sizing die work all the way down the (existing) case.  No case wall to bulge, no need to worry about bulges causing chamber wedgies.  Does it matter?  Todd thinks so.  The walls are supposed to be thicker, but short of sectioning a couple of dozne of each and measuirng them, I don't know.

[Clark]

AA#5 9x19mm cart Overall length = 1.169", Win 115 gr .541",RP primed brass, Kel-Tec P11

0) Minimum charge to cycle pistol........ 5.0 gr   800 fps 12,000 psi

1) 9x19mm.................................7.7 gr  1260 fps 34,000psi

2) 9x19mm +P............................. 8.0 gr  1324 fps 37,400psi

3) 9x19mm +P+............................ 8.3 gr  1353 fps 40,800psi

4) .356TSW............................... 9.1 gr  1455 fps 49,000psi

5) Primer pierce, case bulge ............10.0 gr  1600 fps 65,000psi

6) Case failure[hole] threshold [kaboom].10.7 gr 1700 fps 81,000 psi

7) Case head separation [big kaboom].....11.5 gr wrecks extractor and hold open

I hope this puts the load in perspective.

[Carlos]

Patrick - now I see. Thanks. BTW, I sectioned 3 cases last night - a 9x23 Win, a Starline 9 Supercomp, and a Starline .38 SuperComp.  The 9x23 was noticeably thicker in the web and head; I could not detect a difference in Starline's 9Supercomp and their .38 Supercomp (other than headstamp). D.

PS - I don't like sectioning cases.

[Duane Thomas]

No surprise the 9x23's web is noticeably thicker. According to the folks at Winchester, the 9x23 has the strongest auto pistol casing ever made. AAMOF the only handgun casing stronger than the 9x23 period is the .454 Casull.

[gm iprod]

I understand the 9x23 case is built along the lines of the 223Rem case head dimensions. Correct me if wrong.

[Carlos]

That's what I understand. go to http://www.pistolsmith.com and the 9x23 forum, then the thread "view from the hills" . Apparently early 9x23 were made from .223. Though I use 9mm shelplates now, the .223 is supposed to be superior.  D.

[BigDave]

i got this from http://www.burnscustom.com

Since the original conversations about the implementation of the 10 rd magazine ban I have been searching for the very best 9mm size rd for the 1911 gun platform. With a long history in IPSC I have been through the generations of major 9mm and major 38 Super rounds. There have been whole generations of 9mm major cartridge combinations for the 1911. Col. Cooper did an early version by chopping off 223 brass and shooting at major, the "Super Cooper". There have been 9x19s loaded short to major and the 9x21, the 356 TSW, 38 Super at major and the new brood of 9mm Supercomp and 38 Supercomp and finally the John Ricco version that came before the super comps: CP 9x23 and it's stolen twin, Winchester 9x23.

Dane has a whole page dedicated to this cartridge.  It appears to be his caliber of choice...

[Clark]

Back in 2002, Dane Burns had less than enthusiasm for me explaining on his pistolsmith forum on how I converted a $150 Tokarev for $35 to shoot loads twice as hot as his $1,000 conversions.

Since then, his forum has dwindled, and his website has not changed.

I hope he is still alive.

His web site is what inspired me to convert guns to 9x23mm.