Magnet on belt for USPSA Production:

[Flexmoney]

...and most WSB's are written simply "all magazines start on the table" which doesn't provide guidance for how to proceed after the buzzer goes off.....

So...we are probably failing to properly write the WSB's.

Which, as responsible match officials, we are more likely to know this gray and obscure area...so, we ought to shoulder the business of spelling it out in the WSB.

(I have a feeling I would want to re-write the WSB and then re-shoot the shooter...rather than bump them to Open. )

[Charles Bond]

this is a good topic. I always wonderd on a table start where mags are on table, you grab your gun load your mags in pouches except for 2. Then you load your gun rack the slide, then you grab the other mag and hold in between your ring finger and middle finger. Basically having a mag in your left hand if you are a righty, then when you need to do a reload drop the empty mag, and taking the mag from your left hand and just shooving into the gun. I think it would save you plenty of time, if you practice it, especially where there is a small area to do a reload.

Keep in mind that once upon a time we viewed this as "practical shooting". Practical was not only a part of the rules, it was used as a means to view the written rules. Practical would mean that in that given situation with the mags on table and if you had to engage in a gun battle, you might throw them in your pocket, in your mouth or between your fingers as above described. If we want to remain practical that should be fine.

And on the subject of whether a magnet on the belt is a magazine retention device, I would just have to say for what other purpose would it be placed on the gunbelt?

Let's take another situation which is on the way down range, the shooter trips and falls and dislodges his mag retention devices. He safely gets up and graps the mag retention devices. Does he have to put them back in place behind the hip or can he shove them where ever he desires? If anyone wants to say they have to go back behind the hip, what practical purpose would that requirement serve?

[Nik Habicht]

this is a good topic. I always wonderd on a table start where mags are on table, you grab your gun load your mags in pouches except for 2. Then you load your gun rack the slide, then you grab the other mag and hold in between your ring finger and middle finger. Basically having a mag in your left hand if you are a righty, then when you need to do a reload drop the empty mag, and taking the mag from your left hand and just shooving into the gun. I think it would save you plenty of time, if you practice it, especially where there is a small area to do a reload.

Keep in mind that once upon a time we viewed this as "practical shooting". Practical was not only a part of the rules, it was used as a means to view the written rules. Practical would mean that in that given situation with the mags on table and if you had to engage in a gun battle, you might throw them in your pocket, in your mouth or between your fingers as above described. If we want to remain practical that should be fine.

And on the subject of whether a magnet on the belt is a magazine retention device, I would just have to say for what other purpose would it be placed on the gunbelt?

Let's take another situation which is on the way down range, the shooter trips and falls and dislodges his mag retention devices. He safely gets up and graps the mag retention devices. Does he have to put them back in place behind the hip or can he shove them where ever he desires? If anyone wants to say they have to go back behind the hip, what practical purpose would that requirement serve?

Charles,

I'm fine with that in principle --- I'm just looking for a rule or official NROI interpretation to hang that on.....

.....or a more clearly written WSB......

[Glen]

George/Nik:

Course of fire starts with gun and all mags on the table. Production Shooter starts, runs to table loads gun, pops a spare in his mouth and proceeds to move forward down range engaging targets......has the shooter violated equipment rules in so doing?

According to the above analysis, the answer is "yes". In the mouth violates the "distance

from the torso" and the "behind the hipbone" criteria for the placement of magazines. Off to

Open we go. Same should be true if the Production shooter held the spare mag in his hand.

Let's expand this question to Open shooters as well. The mag in mouth retention violates

the placement rules for Open. Is the open shooter now out of the match because there is no

way of applying a penalty to him (he's already in Open) or does he get a free pass?

And now my opinion ...

I always understood that you had to be in compliance with the division requirements and

the WSB prior to the start signal, failing which the RO could not start you. After the start signal

it is freestyle subject to the WSB.

Glen

So if the division requirements and the WSB are in conflict, what happens then?

Gary

The WSB trumps the division requirements. For instance, the WSB says the gun

starts on the table. The division requirements say in the holster. The WSB says

the mags start on the table. The division requirements say on the belt. Etc.

Each of these examples has the WSB overturning the division requirements and

no one questions it. The stage is shot according to the WSB. Has everyone been

doing it wrong? The "de jure" rules don't give priority to the WSB over the

division requirements, but the "de facto" rules of our sport have done exactly

that.

Glen

[badchad]

Thanks all for the discussion. So is there a consensus here? It's ok then? Magnet behind the hip and mags wherever you want to put them after the beep?

[mactiger]

George/Nik:

Course of fire starts with gun and all mags on the table. Production Shooter starts, runs to table loads gun, pops a spare in his mouth and proceeds to move forward down range engaging targets......has the shooter violated equipment rules in so doing?

According to the above analysis, the answer is "yes". In the mouth violates the "distance

from the torso" and the "behind the hipbone" criteria for the placement of magazines. Off to

Open we go. Same should be true if the Production shooter held the spare mag in his hand.

Let's expand this question to Open shooters as well. The mag in mouth retention violates

the placement rules for Open. Is the open shooter now out of the match because there is no

way of applying a penalty to him (he's already in Open) or does he get a free pass?

And now my opinion ...

I always understood that you had to be in compliance with the division requirements and

the WSB prior to the start signal, failing which the RO could not start you. After the start signal

it is freestyle subject to the WSB.

Glen

So if the division requirements and the WSB are in conflict, what happens then?

Gary

The WSB trumps the division requirements. For instance, the WSB says the gun

starts on the table. The division requirements say in the holster. The WSB says

the mags start on the table. The division requirements say on the belt. Etc.

Each of these examples has the WSB overturning the division requirements and

no one questions it. The stage is shot according to the WSB. Has everyone been

doing it wrong? The "de jure" rules don't give priority to the WSB over the

division requirements, but the "de facto" rules of our sport have done exactly

that.

Glen

Well, yes and no.

There isn't anything in the rule book that says the WSB always trumps the division requirements. It may, but if you just have to pick up your magazines, you can't just stick them in your pockets. If the course provides a bucket or something, or allows you to stage them around the course, or specifically states that you can put them anywhere on your person,then that's fine, but having to pick them up and put them on means that you are still required to abide by division requirements. For single stack and Production that means that they have to stay behind the point of the hip. The word "shall" in the following rule means just that.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor

may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in

his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having

dropped or exhausted his primary magazines.

App. D4-12: Restriction on position of holster and other equipment

(revolver speedloaders.moon clips are exempt)

Yes, see Appendix E3

The bottom line is that if you must start with all your magazines off your person, per the WSB, you are still not allowed to just pick them up and put them anywhere, unless the WSB specifically states that you can do so. Unless specifically allowed by the WSB, putting your magazines in your mouth or shirt pocket will earn you a trip to Open.

There is nothing in the division rules that requires you to start with a holstered gun. 5.2.1 says how you have to carry it, but the WSB can (and often does) require different start conditions (flat on the table, in a drawer, loaded, unloaded, etc.) The usual start condition is loaded and holstered, but not always.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

18 • USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

As for the question of the Open shooter breaking division requirements for distance from belt, this is one of the very few times I think the "Forbidden Action" rule would be useful. On the first occurrence, the competitor must reshoot, anyone after that gets a zero.

Of course, my opinion, as always.

Troy

[mactiger]

Thanks all for the discussion. So is there a consensus here? It's ok then? Magnet behind the hip and mags wherever you want to put them after the beep?

Not quite. I'd say yes to the magnetic magazine retention device, as long as it's placement meets division requirements, and no (see my other post) to "wherever you want them after the beep", unless the WSB allows it.

Troy

[badchad]

I think I got the end all be all answer here.

Or at least John Amidon said so as did all the CROs sitting around the lunch table at Nationals. I was shooting Limited so the rule didn’t apply to at this time but I gave them my what if question regarding Production. I was wearing the rig in question so they knew exactly what I was talking about.

The answer was that if I put a magazine on my magnet and the magazine was in front of the hip even after the beep with an all mags on table start it would be in violation of the rule and bump me into open. If however I or a Single Stack shooter were to hold a magazine in my mouth or hand it would not be a violation because the magazine would not be held by a “device” or something to that effect.