Brass Magwell Or Seattle Slug In Esp??

[Mark Perez]

Someone posted a similar question on GT - so I figured I'd ask here and at idpaforums .

Do any of you know if a brass magwell ( or a brass S/slug ) is permitted in IDPA ESP with any GLOCK?

I've seen some players with aluminum magwells - but seem to think that a brass well was viewed the same as a "weighted grip" .

Also have an inquiry to idpa - but I'm not holding my breath for any response soon.

until that day.

MP

[vincent]

Based on what I got back from IDPA HQ I think that a brass magwell would be OK in ESP since the addition of a magwell is allowed and the addition of the magwell would not put the gun over the weight limit. The response I got from Dru is included below. Also to make the brass magwell appear less "gamey" for IDPA you could use Birchwood Casey Brass Black or one of the spray/bake black finishes found in Brownells.

Although it wasn't part of your question, you can only use a metal as heavy as common steel for the guide rod so no brass or tungsten there.

-Vincent

--------------------------------------------

Vincent,

I will answer within the text of your message so I don’t miss anything.

Thanks,

Dru Robbins

IDPA Coordinator

-----Original Message-----

From: Vincent Zontini

Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:30 AM

To: info@idpa.com

Subject: ESP/CDP Questions

Hello,

To my knowledge in the ESP and CDP divisions adding a magazine well to the pistol is allowed as long as the pistol still fits in the box and weighs less than 43 oz (ESP) or 41 oz (CDP). Is this correct?

This is correct.

Is the weight limit just for the pistol or does this also include an unloaded magazine? This is a really important point with some 1911's with magwells because they are really close the the line.

This includes the unloaded magazine.

I know that steel magazine wells are OK for 1911 pistols. However, I have heard through the grapevine that a steel magwell for a Glock is illegal.

This modification is not allowed for stock service pistol. Glock doesn’t offer this as a factory modification so it isn’t allowed for SSP.

The arguement seems to be that it adds weight and add-on weights are illegal. However, a metal magwell on ANY pistol adds weight, so this doesn't make sense. In addition the weight of a Glock 34/35 with the heaviest magwell I could locate on the web is only 30 oz while the weight of a 1911 with a magwell easily tops 40 oz, so I don't see the competitive advantage arguement standing either. What's are your thoughts? Please explain if required.

As long as you shoot the Glock in either ESP or CDP and don’t exceed the weight limit, you’re good to go.

Thanks,

Dru

Your assistance in clarifying these issues would be appreciated.

Thanks,

-Vincent

[Mark Perez]

Thanks Vincent - now to find one that will fit inside the box!

until that day,

Mark P.

[Mayonaise]

If it's metal it can be made to fit.

[vincent]

I contour the magwells inside and out on my 1911's. A brass magwell could be shaped with little effort since it is so soft. From what I've heard a trimmed T.H.E is the way to go.

[Larrys1911]

What are you guys using for basepads to stay IDPA legal for the box?

Larry P

[vincent]

I haven't gotten that far yet. Here is what I've looked into:

CPMI Aluminum base pads

Lightning Strike Concealment (preban) or small +0

Jentra glue-on bumpers

If all else failed I was going to make some glue-on pads from hard rubber to get the right thickness and shape. Whichever way you go be sure to weight the final setup to make sure it stays under the "less than 1.0 oz over factory" rule for weighted magazines (FAQ section of LGB).

Since a lot of the Glock magwell stuff isn't specifically designed for IDPA, I think anything you get is going to require modification to be legal. It also depends on the gun. I'm trying first with a G17. The G34 is going to be tougher.

[Larrys1911]

I'm trying first with a G17. The G34 is going to be tougher.

Why?

LP

[Flexmoney]

OK...no tungsten guide rod on the Glocks? Even in ESP, if it stays under the total weight limit?

[TRG65]

No Tungsten in IDPA. Regardless of weight.

[Flexmoney]

Thanks Seth.

Does ESP need to be a stock production pistol, or can build and/or mix and match?

Could I, for example, put a 9x23 barrel into a Glock 20 (10mm)?

Coule I lighten the slide, internally?

[vincent]

I'm trying first with a G17. The G34 is going to be tougher. 

Why?

LP

In an email from HQ, Dru said that a second/backup gun for a match has to be the "same model". This suprised me, but I guess same "type, action and caliber" is being interpreted very strictly. Long story short, I happen to already have two G17's so I'm going to start with those so I'll have a backup if needed.

BTW here is the reply from Dru on this issue:

2) Rule #12 says "In any single contest, a shooter must use the same pistol in all stages of the contest, except that shooter may use another pistol of the same type, action, and caliber as that with which he/she commenced the contest if his/her starting pistol becomes unserviceable during the contest."

* The confusion here is in regards to "type and action". Does action means double action only, double/single action, single action only, "Safe Action", etc?

If you started with a 1911, you finish with a 1911. If you started with a Glock, you finish with a Glock. If you start with a double action, you finish with a double action.

* What is type? Is this the EXACT manufacturer and model? For example, can a shooter who starts with say a Beretta Elite II only continue with a second Beretta Elite II, or would a regular Beretta 92F be OK? For that matter would any other DA/SA, 9mm, semi-auto like the very similar Sig P226 be OK? Another example would be if they competitor starts with a mid-size Glock 19 could they use a full-size Glock 17 to complete the match or vice versa? Again these examples assume the complete failure of the primary weapon.

According to our BoD, it must be the same model.

[Mark Perez]

Thanks Seth.

Does ESP need to be a stock production pistol, or can build and/or mix and match?

Could I, for example, put a 9x23 barrel into a Glock 20 (10mm)? 

Coule I lighten the slide, internally?

Flex,

Here are the rules for ESP :

ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL DIVISION

Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL division must be Single Action or selective SA/DA and be of 9mm (9x19), (9x21), (9x23), .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .41 AE, 10mm Norma, .400 Cor-Bon and meet the following criteria:

Pistol including empty magazine must fit in a box measuring 8 3/4" x 6" x 1 5/8" and have a maximum unloaded weight of 43 oz. To reduce cost and provide a level playing field for all pistols permitted, the maximum number of rounds that may be loaded in a magazine is ten (10).

NON-INCLUSIVE list of pistols permitted: (These are just examples of pistols that meet ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL DIVISION requirements and is NOT meant to be a definitive list of approved pistols.)

Browning HP, CZ-75, EAA Witness, Colt Govt., Commander, Glock 17, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27, 31, 34, 35, H&K P7, Springfield 1911A1, Military 1911 and 1911A1, AMT Hardballer, Auto Ordnance 1911A1, STI/SVI, Para Ordnance .38 super/.40 S&W pistols, Smith & Wesson Performance Center 9mm, 356TSW & 40 Limited, PPC. NOTE: Pistols approved for SSP may also be used in ESP and CDP depending upon caliber.

INCLUSIVE list of permitted modifications: (If it's not on this list, it can't be used in Defensive Pistol competition.) · Change of sights to another notch and post type

· Change of grips (no weighted grips)

· Internal accuracy work to include replacement of the barrel with one of factory configuration

· Internal reliability work

· Checker frontstrap and backstrap

· Checker or square and checker trigger guard

· Cosmetic checkering/serrating

· Extended thumb (may be ambidextrous) and grip safeties

· Full length guide rod manufactured of material that is no heavier than common steel

· Change of hammer and other trigger action parts to enhance trigger pull

· Beveled magazine well and add-on well extensions

· Custom finishes

NON-INCLUSIVE list of EXCLUDED modifications: ·

Heavy barrels, cone barrels and/or barrel sleeves (factory or aftermarket)

· Porting of barrels

· Compensators

· Add on weights, weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, extended dust covers

· Sights of non-standard notch and post configuration

· Extended oversize magazine release buttons

· Trigger shoes

It appears to me that you can run a different caliber/barrel in 9x23 (note ,it only refers to configuration and not caliber )but I would get an official reply from IDPA regarding the lighter slide option.

[Flexmoney]

Thanks Mark...it does sound a bit "iffy". I would check first before I ever tried/built it. (In the back of my mind, I want to build a G20 to run with 38SuperComp or 9x23. I guess I am looking for a reason. )

The 9/38 caliber barrel would might seems like a bull barrel in the G20 (same outside barrel diameter, but smaller inside diameter). So that could be a hurdle.