625 vs 610

[UltraTen]

Just be advised that any given Sunday a match director can declare your ammo illegal if the brass isnt the same that's marked on the gun. Now you can pooh pooh all you want but the bottom line is it has happened, will continue to happen, and has the blessing of HQ. Currently I have only heard of it being enforced with 38's but with the ruling from HQ there is nothing preventing a match director from picking up a moonclip full of .40 S&W brass that he just saw come out of a 610 and giving the shooter a FTDR.

So your saying that if im shooting my Smith 686 and using 38cal spl out it that the MD can declare your ammo illegal

That's what it sounds like.

Doesn't make much sense since the gun is designed to fire either round, but I guess it was done to take all the guess work out of it.

If the gun marked 10mm or 357 that is what should be coming out of it.

I figure that if the round makes PF no harm no foul, but that's just me.

[Cherryriver]

It may be that the earlier reference to ".38" might have meant .38 Short Colt loads. Indeed, if you go into IDPA forums you'll see plenty of mentions of that being held illegal.

It's true that under the rules, using .38 Special in your .357 is probably illegal as well. I haven't heard anyone get dinged for that, but it's possible. In IDPA, anything's possible. Much of the rulebook isn't fully fleshed out, and for revolver shooters, that goes in multiples.

I don't doubt the anecdote above about the empty moonclip. I've had match directors make interpretations on the fly that made no more sense, and should you suggest that a course is not six-shot-possible (as the book requires), you will get, at best, a blank stare. Or, told off rather sharply, as has happened to me.

The tough part is that in the case of an incomplete rule, there's the overriding one about it being related to "real life." That one can be used as a pretty wide broom if the MD cares to invoke it.

It's pretty clear that the rule mongers don't have much grasp of revolvers and revolver equipment. That's not the end of the world, and for goodness' sake, it's still just a game. You just go along.

Anyway, back to the original question: that 610 will do you fine, and you won't gain hardly anything by going 625. Yes, there's a difference, but putting the money into practice ammunition will do more for improving your standing than the bigger charge holes will.

Incidentally, I don't see being able to use the 610 in SSR, since moonclips are prohibited there. So get a 686, which rules that division anyway, as painful as it is for a Python shooter to admit.

[Brian Gonsalves]

What Tome E said, also I wouldnt plan on getting a 610 with the intent of shooting .40's in it. Your load could become illegal overnight, heck it could become illegal in the middle of a match with no rule quoted whatsoever. Just ask the .38 colt guys. So with that in mind I figure it would be much better loading 45's than the long 10mm's.

Just be advised that any given Sunday a match director can declare your ammo illegal if the brass isnt the same that's marked on the gun. Now you can pooh pooh all you want but the bottom line is it has happened, will continue to happen, and has the blessing of HQ. Currently I have only heard of it being enforced with 38's but with the ruling from HQ there is nothing preventing a match director from picking up a moonclip full of .40 S&W brass that he just saw come out of a 610 and giving the shooter a FTDR.

The one idpa match i shot i was dinged for a penelty for dumping a empty moonclip.

It was explained to me that i didnt have a slide to lock back on my revolver so i had to retain all my moons .

ex idpa member

Steve

So your saying that if im shooting my Smith 686 and using 38cal spl out it that the MD can declare your ammo illegal

These questions have came up at our club as well. Here's a copy of the email I sent IDPA headquarters and the response I received from Robert Ray today!

Hi Robert,

Some time ago you and I spoke at length about different cartridges used in revolvers. To refresh your memory I had inquired to the legality of using .38 Short Colt or Long Colt in SSR as they met the caliber minimum requirement. You stated that would not be allowed, as to do so would force a shooter to reload ammo giving some an advantage, and there are no "self-defense" type ammo in .38 Short or Long Colt. I then went on to ask about the use of .45 GAP ammo in ESR. I brought up the point that .45 GAP ammo was available both commercially and in "self-defense" type. You agreed that it would be legal but notified me that in a future rulebook there would be a change that would state the only ammo to be used would be the ammo that was marked on the gun. At that point I expressed my frustration as I had purchased a S&W 686 in .38 Super to use in IDPA revolver competition only to have the rules change and require 165,000 power factor in ESR, and then in another collaboration with S&W there was now a 686 SSR in .357 Magnum that would soon have to be fired with .357 magnum loads to be legal. Thus requiring some one to reload .357 Magnum loads down to the SSR power factor of 125,000 to be competitive, I also pointed out the .40 S&W / 10mm in S&W 610's. At that time you stated that the new rules would allow .38 Specials in .357 Magnum revolvers and .40 S&W in 10mm revolvers.

We have seen a quite a bit of interest with revolvers lately and have received many questions. I want to encourage more revolver shooters and just want to be clear on headquarters desires. So to clarify:

.38 Short & Long Colt – Not Approved in any gun, in the Current or New Rulebook

.45 GAP – Currently Approved in .45acp revolvers, but will not be allowed in the New Rulebook

.38 Special – Approved in .357 revolvers, in both the Current and New rulebook

.40 S&W – Approved in 10mm revolvers in both the Current and New rulebook

One more clarification, I had someone tell me that ESR shooter had to retain all moonclips during reloads without regard to whether or not all rounds had been fired. I disagreed, I felt as long as all Six (6) rounds had been fired the moonclip could be dropped on the ground. However if there were One (1) or more rounds unfired the moonclip must be retained. I assume the same would be true for fired and unfired rounds in SSR?

Thank you very much for your time! I look forward to your reply!

Take care,

Brian Gonsalves – A15890

President NVSA Gridley, CA

Brian,

You have pretty much stated correctly the layout on the caliber issues.

As for ESR reloads, it is the same as SSR. If there are live rounds left you must retain them unless clearing a malfunction. If there are no live rounds left, dump it and go.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

robert@idpa.com

Edited March 4, 2009 by Brian Gonsalves

[Bones]

I know a lot of IDPA ESR revolver shooters. Their overwhelming choice in ESR is the 625. But, if you're set up for 40 S&W anyway, the 610 is not a bad place to start. You know you need to make 165000 PF in ESR, right? Look up a young man from PA named Josh Lentz - he used a 646 for a few seasons at 165000 PF and did pretty well with it.

You might also want to solicit help on the IDPA forum revolver section. You'll find many active IDPA Revolver shooters there who will be willing to help: http://idpaforum.yuku.com/

I shoot a lot of IDPA matches (~60 club matches and a dozen Major matches a year), most of them with a revolver. Frankly, I don't know where or how all of the misinformation and misrepresentation that is being purveyed here originated. In all the time I have been shooting revolver in IDPA (since 2002), I have never encountered anything like anyone here has described. Not once. I also talk with quite a few IDPA revolver shooters at all levels across the country - I have never heard them describe these events either. Could these things happen at a local club level - probably - but they are clearly the exception and not the rule.

The recent National match at S&W beat all attendance records for revolvers (49) from any USPSA or IDPA National event this century. To say that IDPA does not understand revolvers is in conflict with the data. Apparently record numbers of revolver shooters agree. You have to go to an ICORE match to find more. Even then at some ICORE Regional matches, you won't find that many.

Enjoy ESR Ultra Ten - it has some pretty steep competition. I encourage you to try ESR and collect your own data before you abandon shooting a revolver in IDPA based on hearsay.

Best Regards,

Craig

Edited March 4, 2009 by Bones

[Delta Mike]

I have a 610 and love it. It is the first revolver that I used exclusively for games. The only problem I can come up with is that I peened the stop notches from dry fire. Lots and Lots of dry fire. Part of the problem was the extra mass from the non fluted cylinder. I have a 625 and a 686 that now are approaching the same number of snaps as the 610, and have not developed that problem.

Take care,

DM

[UltraTen]

I have a 610 and several 625s. My 610 is one of the originals with the heavy unfluted cylinder. I think the 625 shoots softer with major PF loads than the 610.

I have a 610 and love it. It is the first revolver that I used exclusively for games. The only problem I can come up with is that I peened the stop notches from dry fire. Lots and Lots of dry fire. Part of the problem was the extra mass from the non fluted cylinder. I have a 625 and a 686 that now are approaching the same number of snaps as the 610, and have not developed that problem.

Take care,

DM

Isn't the 610 with the unfluted cylinder over legal weight of 50 oz??

[Drachen27]

I've shot the 625, 610 and 646 in IDPA. The 625 is faster to reload, but not by that much. At the level I'm shooting at (mid SS) shooting one or the other hasn't won or lost me a match yet.

One thing not mentioned here that make the 610/646 harder to reload is that I haven't found a RN bullet for 10mm/40S&W that isn't lead and is on the right weight to allow me to make the proper PF. The best I can find and what I've used is a RNFP. And the moonclips for a 610 are more expensive than those for a 625. Maybe that's not a factor to many people, but depending on what brand you use you can see $2 or more difference per moonclip and that was a consideration for me.

I like the 646 alot (not that the OP is considering one). I use a 165gr plated bullet at around 1060 fps. The smaller L-frame is a bit easier to manuever around barracades and doorways. I find the 10mm has the least felt-recoil of the three. For 10mm I reload a downloaded 200gr RNFP plated bullet at around 950 fps. (yes I know I can download it further).

For my local (smaller) matches I'm not any of the three guns is that much better than the other. I recently shot the IDPA Indoor match and the heavier gun and recoil did start to wear on me a bit. In a session with Jerry Miculek, he confirmed what I had heard that he's considering going to SSR for IDPA because the recoil at the ESR PF is causing some problems with his wrists.

I don't think you'd be unhappy with either choice.

[COF]

I've shot a lot of Berry's 180 RN in my 646. They are about as round nose as you'll get. Before they raised the PF in IDPA I used to shoot a 140PF load with their 155 HBRN. That was a sweet shooting load.

Maybe I'll have to get some more of them so I can shoot USPSA minor

Jerry