Third Party FFL Transfers

[Heavy Barrel]

I have recently been trying to get things squared away so that the seller can ship a semiauto shotgun that I have purchased.

Only something has went south. Everytime the party handling the FFL transfer attempts to fax a copy of his FFL it comes back to him. I know that there are too many possibilities as to why so I won't press that question.

Though in amist of all this I have had some thoughts come to mind. Can the paying party send a copy of the FFL holders license with the payment or does it have to come from the address on the License?

And how come the FFL holder is required to send a copy of his license prior. But if the owner is shipping a firearm in for repairs no matter whether its a private gunsmith or a commercial gunsmith. The smith is not required to send a copy of thier FFL prior (to the best of my knowledge)?

[hitman]

You can mail a signed FFL with payment.

Short answer to your last question GOVERNMENT.

[Heavy Barrel]

After talking to the dealer tonight that will be handling the transfer.

The seller was having the faxes sent to his job, but for some reason the party that was intercepting the faxes their either didn't know who he was or something but they were destroying them.

On the third attempt they called the dealer and told him not to send any more.

So he has mailed it out.

[ciscoip]

Technically, Federal law doesn't require the sender to have an FFL, only the receiver. The receiving FFL is not required to send a copy of his FFL to the person shipping . . . if one asked for the requisite info, one could verify on their own that an FFL is legit and verify their official address by using FFLeZCheck (https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/).

But:

Some FFLs insist on only receiving from other FFLs (I try to avoid them.)

Edited for slight correction; under Title 27, Section 478.94, licensees are required to obtain to obtain certified copies of licenses from other licensees . . . however, I don't see any such requirements for a non-licensee to obtain a copy from a licensee. ( http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...478_main_02.tpl )

Edited February 4, 2009 by ciscoip

[kgunz11]

Technically, Federal law doesn't require the sender to have an FFL, only the receiver. The receiving FFL is not required to send a copy of his FFL to the person shipping . . . if one asked for the requisite info, one could verify on their own that an FFL is legit and verify their official address by using FFLeZCheck (https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/).

Where does that information come from? You must ship interstate ONLY to an FFL, how are you to know you are actually shipping to an active FFL if you do not have a copy.

A physical or faxed copy of an FFL license is required to verify that the FFL is valid. The FFL license shows the name and address of the FFL dealer, and that is the only address that firearms may be shipped to and it is the only method that the seller has to determine the proper shipment address for the item you purchased.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/...pping-firearms/

Be careful of getting information concerning laws that can have you thrown in jail. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and it is up to you to verify if what you are doing is or is not legal.

Contact your local BATFE office and save yourself the trouble of doing something illegal.

[kframe_mike]

That's my understanding of the federal rules too kguns11.I think most FFLs would only use FFLeZCheck to varify the info on the mailed/faxed copy.Theres probably always some ongoing ATF sting ops for fakes I would imagine.-Mike

[ciscoip]

Technically, Federal law doesn't require the sender to have an FFL, only the receiver. The receiving FFL is not required to send a copy of his FFL to the person shipping . . . if one asked for the requisite info, one could verify on their own that an FFL is legit and verify their official address by using FFLeZCheck (https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/).

Where does that information come from? You must ship interstate ONLY to an FFL, how are you to know you are actually shipping to an active FFL if you do not have a copy.

A physical or faxed copy of an FFL license is required to verify that the FFL is valid. The FFL license shows the name and address of the FFL dealer, and that is the only address that firearms may be shipped to and it is the only method that the seller has to determine the proper shipment address for the item you purchased.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/...pping-firearms/

Be careful of getting information concerning laws that can have you thrown in jail. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and it is up to you to verify if what you are doing is or is not legal.

Contact your local BATFE office and save yourself the trouble of doing something illegal.

I don't claim to be a lawyer and I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately. However, here's a link to Title 18, Chapter 44 of the U.S. Code:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...10_I_20_44.html

Please cite the section requiring a non-licensee to obtain a physical or faxed copy of an FFL license to verify validity.

Second, did you actually look at the FFL eZCheck website? Quoting directly from it: "The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid." Entering the requisite info will verify validity of the FFL and will show you the current address of the licensee, which is the only one anyone should ship to . . . if you've got an FFL asking you to ship to any other address, I would run away as quickly as possible.

For the real deal, I suggest contacting a lawyer licensed to practice in your state and/or obtaining a written opinion from BATFE . . . not that the latter will necessarily be correct either, but at least you'll know what interpretation they will use for purposes of enforcement.

Edited February 4, 2009 by ciscoip

[kgunz11]

Technically, Federal law doesn't require the sender to have an FFL, only the receiver. The receiving FFL is not required to send a copy of his FFL to the person shipping . . . if one asked for the requisite info, one could verify on their own that an FFL is legit and verify their official address by using FFLeZCheck (https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/).

Where does that information come from? You must ship interstate ONLY to an FFL, how are you to know you are actually shipping to an active FFL if you do not have a copy.

A physical or faxed copy of an FFL license is required to verify that the FFL is valid. The FFL license shows the name and address of the FFL dealer, and that is the only address that firearms may be shipped to and it is the only method that the seller has to determine the proper shipment address for the item you purchased.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/...pping-firearms/

Be careful of getting information concerning laws that can have you thrown in jail. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and it is up to you to verify if what you are doing is or is not legal.

Contact your local BATFE office and save yourself the trouble of doing something illegal.

I don't claim to be a lawyer and I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately. However, here's a link to Title 18, Chapter 44 of the U.S. Code:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...10_I_20_44.html

Please cite the section requiring a non-licensee to obtain a physical or faxed copy of an FFL license to verify validity.

Second, did you actually look at the FFL eZCheck website? Quoting directly from it: "The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid." Entering the requisite info will verify validity of the FFL and will show you the current address of the licensee, which is the only one anyone should ship to . . . if you've got an FFL asking you to ship to any other address, I would run away as quickly as possible.

For the real deal, I suggest contacting a lawyer licensed to practice in your state and/or obtaining a written opinion from BATFE . . . not that the latter will necessarily be correct either, but at least you'll know what interpretation they will use for purposes of enforcement.

I'm sorry bro, but I'm not going to use a Cornell University interpretation of US firearms codes. BUT, to be a fair sport, I will cite the appropriate appendix for you from the BATFE website.

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922((3)]

Now how else are you going to know if the name and address you are given to ship to is a current FFL holder? EZ Check? Well if you'd go to that website you'd realize you have to have the FFL license number to verify status.

As stated in the ATF’s own policy, a certified copy of the FFL license is REQUIRED to complete any interstate firearm transaction. The ATF now accepts faxed copies of a certified FFL license, but they recommend that you verify the license using their online FFL EZ Check system prior to shipping an item.”

Now I'm not a lawyer either, nor did I stay in any hotel last night, but I'm a concerned citizen and I'll leave a light on for you. Other than that, I'm done with this debate as I've presented all the evidence necessary in regards to the OP's dilemma to keep someone out of the hole.

[ciscoip]

Technically, Federal law doesn't require the sender to have an FFL, only the receiver. The receiving FFL is not required to send a copy of his FFL to the person shipping . . . if one asked for the requisite info, one could verify on their own that an FFL is legit and verify their official address by using FFLeZCheck (https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/).

Where does that information come from? You must ship interstate ONLY to an FFL, how are you to know you are actually shipping to an active FFL if you do not have a copy.

A physical or faxed copy of an FFL license is required to verify that the FFL is valid. The FFL license shows the name and address of the FFL dealer, and that is the only address that firearms may be shipped to and it is the only method that the seller has to determine the proper shipment address for the item you purchased.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/...pping-firearms/

Be careful of getting information concerning laws that can have you thrown in jail. Ignorance is no excuse for the law and it is up to you to verify if what you are doing is or is not legal.

Contact your local BATFE office and save yourself the trouble of doing something illegal.

I don't claim to be a lawyer and I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately. However, here's a link to Title 18, Chapter 44 of the U.S. Code:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...10_I_20_44.html

Please cite the section requiring a non-licensee to obtain a physical or faxed copy of an FFL license to verify validity.

Second, did you actually look at the FFL eZCheck website? Quoting directly from it: "The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid." Entering the requisite info will verify validity of the FFL and will show you the current address of the licensee, which is the only one anyone should ship to . . . if you've got an FFL asking you to ship to any other address, I would run away as quickly as possible.

For the real deal, I suggest contacting a lawyer licensed to practice in your state and/or obtaining a written opinion from BATFE . . . not that the latter will necessarily be correct either, but at least you'll know what interpretation they will use for purposes of enforcement.

I'm sorry bro, but I'm not going to use a Cornell University interpretation of US firearms codes. BUT, to be a fair sport, I will cite the appropriate appendix for you from the BATFE website.

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922((3)]

Now how else are you going to know if the name and address you are given to ship to is a current FFL holder? EZ Check? Well if you'd go to that website you'd realize you have to have the FFL license number to verify status.

As stated in the ATF’s own policy, a certified copy of the FFL license is REQUIRED to complete any interstate firearm transaction. The ATF now accepts faxed copies of a certified FFL license, but they recommend that you verify the license using their online FFL EZ Check system prior to shipping an item.”

Now I'm not a lawyer either, nor did I stay in any hotel last night, but I'm a concerned citizen and I'll leave a light on for you. Other than that, I'm done with this debate as I've presented all the evidence necessary in regards to the OP's dilemma to keep someone out of the hole.

If it makes you feel better, you can look up the same info here: http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml , but the cornell website has the same U.S. code and is easier to look through. 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922((3) can be found on both . . . now where in those sections do you see that a NON-FFL sending a firearm is required to obtain a certified copy of an FFL?

Of course you need an FFL's license number to use eZCheck, that's obvious to anyone that's seen the website . . . I never said you didn't. Actually, you only need part of the license number and this can be obtained via email or over the phone . . . if some tries to pull a stunt by providing a fake FFL number, either the eZCheck system would say the number isn't valid or if the number is valid, the gun could possibly be sent to the wrong FFL. Incidentally, if someone were to received faxed forgery of an FFL and did not verify the license via eZCheck or calling it in, they could quite easily be hoodwinked into sending the firearm to the fake address of a non-FFL holder.

You say that ATF's own policy requires a certified copy of an FFL license, and I agree, according to the Code of Federal Regulations at the cite I included, this is true for FFL holders sending to each other. However, where does it say a NON-FFL sender is required to obtain this?

I too happen to be a concerned citizen, who is worried that when wrong information is repeated, we run the risk of defeat and having our rights ceded away not through malignant legislation, but by mere fear and ignorance.

But for the OP, I'll reiterate, the safest bet is to consult an attorney licensed to practice in your state and/or obtain a written opinion from BATFE.