Round Dumping and Stage Design

[Chills1994]

Just off the top of my head, the only way right now, that I could see to eliminate round dumping via stage design is to break up a stage so that a shooter must shoot a popper which falls and activates a moving and/or disappearing target.

Place that popper in the lineup of the stage so that if forces shooters to do a reload with retention (RWR) or a tactical reload (TR) before engaging the popper.

Not topping off the gun before the popper results in the gun going to slide lock while the drop turner or peekaboo is visible for those few (split?) seconds. If it truly is a disappearing target, they don't get an FTN for not shooting the target, BUT they still get a -10 target points down.

[jkelly]

Texastactical,

I understand the position you were in and that intent is often difficult or impossible to judge. You are a very experienced shooter/SO and as an inexperienced SO I’d like to understand the sequence of events that happened the day that you penalized the female shooter for dumping rounds.

After seeing the first shooters dump rounds, in the same manor, did you warn the squad before penalizing the female shooter?

How many shooters, in that squad, had you allowed to dump rounds (in that same manor) before penalizing the female shooter?

Did you warn the following squads and/or did the same pattern of round dumping happen with other shooters or squads?

As you and the MD agreed that the female shooter deserved a FTDR and you say that the whole squad shot the stage the same way, are there any plans to penalize the other shooters of that squad after the fact, ala Taran Butler, with FTDRs or DQs?

I ask because the precedent has been set and you think they cheated.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Jim Norman]

On the cover calls.

One way to eliminate or reduce the shooters breaking cover would be to not build two stages as one. Shooter engages all targets on an as seen as available basis and then starts to move to the wall ahead of him where he knows there are more targets. OOPS, that is part of the next PART of the stage, where in order to maintain an 18 round maximum round count we have split an otherwise large stage into two smaller strings, no Shooter Ready, just point your gun at the mark, buzzer and go. This type of stage design encourages people to break from the last point of cover. Allowing targets from a previously shot portion of the stage to be visible in the second half also encourages shooting at targets that are already engaged and are not part of the current COF, could this be considered Round Dumping? Maybe. I really don't know. I just think that if we are going to have two stages in a pit, then it should be a difinitive break between the two.

Jim

[Bob Hostetter]

jKelly highlights one of the issues I was addressing extremely well. Based on the information presented here only one shooter was penalized for something that several shooters did. At the point that the decision was made to award a FTDR to one shooter, then all of the shooters in that squad that did the same thing should have received the same penalty. It has been done before, even after the match was over (ala Taran Butler). Or even better yet, after the first shooter did it and the staff suspected round dumping, the entire squad should have been warned before the second shooter came up to shoot.

I realize it is not easy to be an SO sometimes but the need to be absolutely fair to EVERY shooter is paramount. As it stands one shooter was penalized for something the SO's passively approved by allowing all of the perceding shooters to do without penalty.

In a course of fire that allows unlimited shots (Vickers) it is next to impossible to determine if someone is intentionally dumping round to gain an advantage. And to award the harshest penalty in the rules seems wrong. At most it should be a procedural.................

[TEXASTACTICAL]

jKelly highlights one of the issues I was addressing extremely well. Based on the information presented here only one shooter was penalized for something that several shooters did. At the point that the decision was made to award a FTDR to one shooter, then all of the shooters in that squad that did the same thing should have received the same penalty. It has been done before, even after the match was over (ala Taran Butler). Or even better yet, after the first shooter did it and the staff suspected round dumping, the entire squad should have been warned before the second shooter came up to shoot.

I realize it is not easy to be an SO sometimes but the need to be absolutely fair to EVERY shooter is paramount. As it stands one shooter was penalized for something the SO's passively approved by allowing all of the perceding shooters to do without penalty.

In a course of fire that allows unlimited shots (Vickers) it is next to impossible to determine if someone is intentionally dumping round to gain an advantage. And to award the harshest penalty in the rules seems wrong. At most it should be a procedural.................

As per the rule book I was giving the shooters the benefit of the doubt until I had no further doubt.

I was told that they told Robert from headquarters that "they had fun and learned alot....most importantly they learned what they could not get away with" I think the call was right and just and it had its desired effect on the team which will benefit them and the sport in the long run.

For the record this was my first FTDR for round dumping and I hope it is my last. I would not hesitate to assess the penalty again in the same conditions. Thanks to all who have stepped up with charachter references.

Have fun be safe and follow the rules. I hope everyone had fun. Once again thank you to Mike, Cindy and Miss Kitty I had a great time working with y'all.

Edited October 2, 2007 by TEXASTACTICAL

[Bob Hostetter]

<<gave the SHOOTERS the benefit of the doubt until I had no further doubt>>

Actually the rulebook states, "give the SHOOTER the benefit of the doubt", singular, not plural. Meaning each SHOOTER must be judged on the basis of their actions alone.

Based on your own statement you indicated that you awarded the FTDR to the female shooter based on the actions of the whole squad. You had decided that the previous shooter's had dumped a round, and assumed that the female shooter had fired the extra shot for the same reason. The only way I can read that is you gave the previous shooter's the "benefit of the doubt" but specifically didn't give it to the female shooter. You awarded her a FTDR based on the actions of others (and your opinion of the reason for their actions). And you may have been right in your call of both the previous shooters and the female shooter. However you applied different standards of conduct to different shooters and to me that is where the problem lies.

In spite of the fact that the rulebook tells you to judge each shooter independently the organization allowed you to assign a group penalty to a single individual. Based on 23 years of shooting competitively ( and serving as both a USPSA RO, and IDPA SO at 100's of matches) I believe it was the wrong call. You, and several others, obviously disagree. But in my opinion, right is right and wrong is wrong, and when we (all SO's including myself) make a bad call we do a disservice to the membership as a whole as well as to the individual shooter involved. Instead of bragging on a forum about having to make a tough call I would be petitioning IDPA to remove the penalty and requesting her overall finishing position be adjusted accordingly. But that's just my opinion and it's worth exactly what you paid for it...........

[Bones]

Thanks to all who have stepped up with charachter references.

I hope I'm not too late.

I know Mike Webb - I'll testify anytime, anywhere and under any conditions that he is a character. He may not be the World Spelling Bee champion, but he is one hell of an SO.

Thanks for all your hard work and wise counsel Mike.

Craig

Edited October 2, 2007 by Bones

[Duane Thomas]

I believe this thread is degenerating into "one side criticizing the SO, one side defending the SO" so I'm going to lock it down. BTW, the topic of round dumping has been beat to death on this board many times. A quick search will turn up more on this topic than you ever wanted to read.