9mm 124gr - Remanufactured

[MasterLefty]

Has anyone had any trouble with remanufactured (training) rounds, 9mm 124gr, ammunition failing to fully chamber?

I've built a 9mm minor gun, and plan on using factory components. Currently I plan on utilizing factory remanufactured.

Currently I am experiencing 1 in 30 rounds that will fail to fully chamber. Sometimes I can replace the cartridge in the mag and on the second time it will chamber. (Their remanufacturered ammo is mixed-headstamp brass.) I went back and started case gauging and there a few that will not fit in the Dillon gauge, somewhere they are on the fat side.

When it happens, the slide lacks about an 1/8" to completely close. I've cleaned and polished the extractor, and stoned the contact areas in the breechface. It runs just fine on new Federal, Winchester and CCI Blazer factory and my own reloads.

Finally last night, I took the last box of 50 and started a thorough inspection to see what I was getting myself into for next months match. After rejecting 10 of 10, I think I discovered the culprit and tomorrow I will call the manufacturer so that they can research their equipment and see if they can solve it.

Somewhere in their process they're building a burr on the rim. I've attached a couple of photos to satisfy anyone's curiosity. One case still had a really good curl still attached, until Fred played with it and stuck it in his finger. It appears that the burr is either hanging on the extractor and on the side of the breechface.

This pistol I've built is very tight and finicky, so I am just curious if anyone else has experienced this problem or if it is due of my pistol.

Kenny

Edited April 17, 2007 by Patrick Sweeney

[Patrick Sweeney]

Now that is one interesting artifact of manufacture. I'd say, if you really, really need the ammo to get through the match, an evening with a fine-cut file will solve the problem.

What I'd like is for anyone who is thinking of jumping to cool it. We could very well find something of interest out of this, and I don't want to see all kinds of "this 'n that" or "so-and-so's ammo is so bad...." responses.

Keep us posted on what feedback you get, as I have never seen something like this before.

Nice photos, by the way.

[Carlos]

I doubt its the commercial reloader.

All the big commercial reloaders depend on ranges for brass. At my old range, I left brass in the floor with 10+ loads on each casing - and all sorts of defects including the defects like the ones you pictured( not sure what gun along the way caused it). Oly way to avoid it is to inspect or to load your own. BTW - the cases sold by re-manufacturers are generally sold back to them - and they stay in the system until they split or the case head separates.

[MasterLefty]

Carlos,

Thanks for the insight. I think my ammo must have come from the same gun. The saturation level is about 90%.

My thoughts are that the commerical reloaders would utilize some kind of roll sizer or that the the burrs would be knocked off through the tumbling/polishing process. We lost the sample that still had the curl attached before I could photograph it.

Kenny

[SLM]

...and there a few that will not fit in the Dillon gauge, somewhere they are on the fat side.

IMO, that's probably your problem. The ding/dent/whatever on the rim really shouldn't cause any chambering problems unless they are sticking on the extractor. At least I've never seen it cause any. I have an EAA Witness that does NASTY things to rims and the reloads in those cases don't give me any problems. Just my .02 but maybe run the rounds thru a Lee FCD or the likes if you are going to use the ammo for competitions. That should take care of any that are over sized.

[MasterLefty]

...and there a few that will not fit in the Dillon gauge, somewhere they are on the fat side.

IMO, that's probably your problem. The ding/dent/whatever on the rim really shouldn't cause any chambering problems unless they are sticking on the extractor. At least I've never seen it cause any. I have an EAA Witness that does NASTY things to rims and the reloads in those cases don't give me any problems. Just my .02 but maybe run the rounds thru a Lee FCD or the likes if you are going to use the ammo for competitions. That should take care of any that are over sized.

I agree. Bulged cases, fat bullets, long brass, etc, I own. I've been reloading for 22 years and made a rookie mistake in thinking that these are "factory" rounds, so I didn't need to case gauge.

Sort'm, cull'm and leave them for practice.

For the rest, I guess I'll follow Patricks advise and grab the fine cut file and spend an evening deburring.

Kenny

[RePete]

Is it possible that it was caused by extraction from the gun that originally fired the round?

[SLM]

Oh yea, it's possible. Like I posted, me EAA Witness does horrible things to case rims. It just tears brass up. The marks it leaves makes the photos look like brand new brass. It doesn't leave a mark on aluminum and has a 100% extraction record with it. Brass is a whole 'nuther matter. Go figure!

[MasterLefty]

Update.

I talked with the manufacturer yesterday after they read my email. Customer service put me through to the shop manager and we had a good conversation.

Initially he thought the same thing that many of you had mentioned, except he thought it was just a flat spot. After I explained that it was a raised burr and after the curl is broken off, it is still raised .006-.010" above the rim. He said that it could very well have come from the loading station. The timing is crucial on the machine and if started to get off it could leave that mark that I was seeing. In general, he said, when the equipment started to get out of time, it would crash. Then they would clean, repair, and recheck the timing.

I explained that it would probably not be a problem for his law enforcement sales, but due to the nature of my pistol and it's limited working environment is probably why it caused me troubles. I think that in my 5" Eagle, it would have never hiccuped.

I told him that I had contacted them so that they could inspect the equipment on the next P.M. cycle, and fix any problems they might encounter. I offered to send him back 5 rounds for his own visual inspection. He was more concerned that I had a couple of rounds that would not case gauge due to their quality controls.

Each lot (or I think any 1000 round sales unit) is tested through three guns and the information is included with the order.

Their production flow is:

sort and separate

pressure check for cracks

roll size

primer pockets chamfered to remove any military crimps

loaded

case gauged (only the length of the sized round)

placed in boxes

visually inspected (sight and touch) for high primers

Kenny

As a plus, I did finally found out their targeted performance characteristics; the load is intended to replicate factory Winchester.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Good info. Keep us posted.

[RePete]

Update.

I talked with the manufacturer yesterday after they read my email. Customer service put me through to the shop manager and we had a good conversation.

Initially he thought the same thing that many of you had mentioned, except he thought it was just a flat spot. After I explained that it was a raised burr and after the curl is broken off, it is still raised .006-.010" above the rim. He said that it could very well have come from the loading station. The timing is crucial on the machine and if started to get off it could leave that mark that I was seeing. In general, he said, when the equipment started to get out of time, it would crash. Then they would clean, repair, and recheck the timing.

I explained that it would probably not be a problem for his law enforcement sales, but due to the nature of my pistol and it's limited working environment is probably why it caused me troubles. I think that in my 5" Eagle, it would have never hiccuped.

I told him that I had contacted them so that they could inspect the equipment on the next P.M. cycle, and fix any problems they might encounter. I offered to send him back 5 rounds for his own visual inspection. He was more concerned that I had a couple of rounds that would not case gauge due to their quality controls.

It's refreshing that a manufacturer is willing to possibly accept responsibility and not say "It's not our problem".

[Patrick Sweeney]

That's why MasterLefty has been so coy. We didn't want to thrash a manufacturer until they'd had a chance to explain things.

[MasterLefty]

I sent the samples off this afternoon and they should arrive on Tuesday. The samples included 5 with "burrs" and 2 that would not case gauge.

On one of the two rounds, I wouldn't expect the them to catch the flaw, after they explained their gauge block. The rim is off center from the rest of the case. There is not a noticeable buldge or shift in the cartridge. I'm not sure that I've ever seen that before. Their gauge block does not check the entire case, just the forward .6" or so.

He did explain that occasionaly brass would jump up through the roll size operation and back of the cartridge wouldn't really be sized, but I don't see how that could shift centerlines between the rim and case body. (Just something I remembered from our conversation yesterday.)

For the remainder of the box, I sat down with a file (Patrick's suggestion) and removed the burrs. Smoothed a couple with 600 grit paper, and stoned the rough edges off the bottom of the cases from the primer pocket reaming. Of the remaining 43 rounds, I had 23 pass my drop test from the chamber gauge.

I'll head out to the range tomorrow and see how they run. The remaining rounds I will run through the Eagle, which will probably not miss a beat.

One last item we discussed yesterday, the shop manager suggested that I could hone out my chamber Ø0.001" larger. He asked if I knew what he was talking about, and I said yes I have a Sunnen honing machine, and that is what they have. I cut this chamber with my JGS finish reamer, although it is getting a "little long in the tooth". I didn't think about this until last night, but this pistol will chamber empty brass from the magazine slicker than loaded ammunition.

Kenny