Poppers

[LPatterson]

Poppers recognize power in that they shouldn't fall to a subminor hit.

Why shouldn't they fall from any hit?

A popper can only recognize the minor PF minimum of 125 with the methods we use now. So, of what use is the calibration of poppers? Is it to catch those cheating on their declared PF? It can't recognize a 165 PF minimum for those shooting major.

If a popper fails to fall from a hit, why isn't the shooter's ammo tested to see if it makes the declared PF as part of the calibration test?

Just what is the point of calibrating the poppers?

Paper targets reward power, in that hits Non-Alpha scoring zones count more for major loads than they do for minor.

Scoring zone dimensions on paper targets and major/minor point values assigned to them is strictly an arbitrary decision by those that designed this game. I have no problem with that, but the idea that the scoring zone dimensions and point values have a direct correlation to one's chronographed PF is a stretch.

The purpose of calibrating poppers is to insure that poppers will fall for anyone shooting a load of 125PF or greater. As to why more ammunition is not tested is a question for the ages. It may be because we do not want to embarrass a local shooter who ran out of match quality ammo & grabbed some training ammo to shoot a match with because the most they might win is a certificate or small trophy. Some of the poppers I have calibrated would fall if hit with a .22 but I didn't intentionally calibrate them that way it was that or too heavy for WWB to knock over. Let's not take this to the point of requiring a chonograph stage at Level I matches.

[Lee Bell]

> Scoring zone dimensions on paper targets and major/minor point values assigned to

> them is strictly an arbitrary decision by those that designed this game.

It is an arbitrary rule implemented specifically to offset the advantage I had when I brought my 15 round Beretta 92F, modified to allow it to be carried cocked and locked, to my first IPSC match. It's a rule that targeted me, personally, with the intention of benefitting the dinasaur 1911 shooters who were too cheap to go out and buy a modern gun to compete on a fair basis, who feared they would a loss to a newbie with a 9mm.

At least that's how it seemed at the time. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Lee

[SA Friday]

For reliability, you just can't beat a properly engineered FFP. Has anyone timed the different fall rates for a FFP and a RFP? I mean really timed it? Then timed if extra hits on a RFP sped up the fall rate and by how much? Also, how about the fall rate for FFP's of different design? I would be very interested to see these numbers. Everyone talks about it, but I believe this is based on impressions. I bet a well designed FFP falls as fast as a RFP with a single hit. Bill Nye the Science guy says so.... This only really comes into play when the steel is used as an activator, and as long as it's consistant then it's fair.

The rules for calibrating steel are to ensure they fall for everyone, lowest denominator of 125 pf. Typically, 9mm factory ammo is used to calibrate, and I have yet to see factory 9mm under 135pf (I'm sure there is some, but I haven't found it here in CO). Hell, WWB is usually used and it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 138-145 pf. Steel is not intended to be a pf BS detector. That's what a chrono is for. A good FFP falls at a very low FFP making it fair for us lowly minor pf shooters. I have had more frustration with RFP's set heavy because of wind or soft ground than any FFP.

As for intentionally shooting RFP's more than once, I can see that being grounds for DQ in the future. It already is at some ranges. The FFP's have very little back-splatter too. It pretty much splatters straight down.

I have pictures of the FFP mechanism we are using in the "Stage Design" area. There are also pictures of the mechanism they are using in Hawaii on their FFP's. Both have been working very well. The mechanism we are using also has the benefit ability to be locked in the upright position as hard cover or a steel no-shoot and deflect a round into the ground. For thos asking why one would want to do that, there's a classifier with a steel no-shoot on it .

[wide45]

When I started in this sport, the calibration rules called for poppers to be set so a minor hit in the lower half of the circular area would not cause the popper to fall.

It is a lot easier to set steel properly under the new rules.

[wide45]

This thread brought up a question.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41048

The overlapping targets for shoot-offs get multiple shots driving them down.

Should they be adapted to forward falling?

[omnia1911]

The purpose of calibrating poppers is to insure that poppers will fall for anyone shooting a load of 125PF or greater.

We don't "calibrate" our poppers in our level I matches. We set them light enough by hand and they fall for every legal round. If the poppers get out of adjustment and fail to fall, we readjust them, and the shooter gets a reshoot for REF. It's a pretty simple management issue to deal with this way.

[SA Friday]

This thread brought up a question.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41048

The overlapping targets for shoot-offs get multiple shots driving them down.

Should they be adapted to forward falling?

Good question. I think the answer depends on where they are being used. If at a range where there are houses near by, any multiple shot on RFP's is bad ju-ju. Then they could be made into FFP's. If this isn't an issue, go with the RFP's. If both shooters have the same advantage/disadvantage, then the contest is a fair and equitable measurement of skill. I would definately inform all shooters they were FFP's before they shot though.

my 2 cents.

[LPatterson]

The purpose of calibrating poppers is to insure that poppers will fall for anyone shooting a load of 125PF or greater.

We don't "calibrate" our poppers in our level I matches. We set them light enough by hand and they fall for every legal round. If the poppers get out of adjustment and fail to fall, we readjust them, and the shooter gets a reshoot for REF. It's a pretty simple management issue to deal with this way.

If you are not calibrating your poppers then you are not shooting a legal USPSA match. Just because a popper falls doesn't mean someone is using a legal round and I have seen lots of edge hits with 40's & 45's leave a popper standing. You are not doing anybody any favors at the local level by not calibrating your poppers. Lazy is as lazy does.

[Jim Norman]

What we do is set our poppers at a relatively light set. We set tehm so the wind generally doesn't knock them down, but no heavier. If someone leaves one standing, we will calibrate it with one of our known shooters 9mm's. I say known shooters because we have people that chrono regularly and have a very consistant load. We generally do not chrono at our match, however that is always a possibility

Jim

[SA Friday]

Hey, look what I found in my aimless BE Forum wanderings... This looks like it was written 2000ish in the "What I hate" area.

Brian Enos

I hate US Poppers in their current calibration configuration. Actually, I hate the entire concept of calibrated poppers. All they do is cause problems, while actually accomplishing little if anyting beneficial. I've seen inconsistently set Poppers, especially US Poppers, burn MANY shooters. One problem is that a 3/4 bullet diameter edge hit on a US Popper, which may or may not knock the popper down, makes the exact same sound as a center hit, which, hopefully, would knock it over. It leaves the shooter with no choice but to wait in a position or visually look at the Poppers to see if they fell. It's a ridiculous situation to force on the shooter because no one’s felt the need to re-evaluate whether or not a 20 year-old target design is still valid or beneficial today. This may have been useful when we had "Peter the Power Meter," but today it is outdated. Especially with what is left of the "power factor."

There is a good analogy in pocket billiards. If you are playing by "Bar" rules, you have to declare EXACTLY how the object ball will make its way into the pocket. The following example shows how idiotic that rule is. Imagine the 8-ball on any rail, one foot from the corner pocket. Between the 8-ball and the pocket there is an opponent’s ball, positioned one-thousandth of an inch farther away from the rail than the diameter of the 8 ball. (Ignoring the fact that on most bar tables the 8 ball is actually bigger than the rest of the balls.) Now your job, as the Bar-rules player, is to say (call) whether the 8-ball will contact the opponents ball on the way to the called pocket. Even the best players in the world couldn’t make that call. That's why "League" or professional rules have no such (ridiculous) requirement. All you have to do is to make the called ball into the called pocket. It doesn't nor should it matter if it brushes another ball on the way to the pocket. The nit-picky rules of the clueless Bar rules only complicate the game. My point is – a steel target should simply fall if struck with any reasonable hit.

While it's true that scoring problems will arise on any target, there is no need to complicate that process with an extremely inconsistent calibration procedure. At least a full size Popper usually makes a different sound when hit on the edge, potentially alerting the shooter, but not always. The original intent of the calibrated popper was for power factoring. When the Pepper Popper was introduced all we had was "Peter the Power Meter" as our calibration tool. (For latecomers to IPSC, it was pretty much a joke.) Now we have the chronograph for calibration. Ammo can be pulled and checked at any time, which takes care of power factoring.

The solution is to make all regular size Poppers fall forward, (eliminating the wind-calibration-factor-problem), like many do now, and get rid of the leverage hinge on US Poppers and set them so they fall with any reasonable hit. The only loss (and I'm not sure if the word "loss" applies) is there would not be an "advantage" for shooting major verses minor caliber for borderline or low hits on steel. This slight loss would be offset by the huge gain in fairness to each competitor; the stages would run smoother faster and they would be MUCH easier to administer. As a stage or match designer, think of how nice your life would be if you didn't have to worry about Popper calibration. (Or I don't know, maybe some like to worry about it.)

Stages should not be designed to easily penalize the shooter; the shooter will take care of that himself.

[omnia1911]

The purpose of calibrating poppers is to insure that poppers will fall for anyone shooting a load of 125PF or greater.

We don't "calibrate" our poppers in our level I matches. We set them light enough by hand and they fall for every legal round. If the poppers get out of adjustment and fail to fall, we readjust them, and the shooter gets a reshoot for REF. It's a pretty simple management issue to deal with this way.

If you are not calibrating your poppers then you are not shooting a legal USPSA match. Just because a popper falls doesn't mean someone is using a legal round and I have seen lots of edge hits with 40's & 45's leave a popper standing. You are not doing anybody any favors at the local level by not calibrating your poppers. Lazy is as lazy does.

A legal round can only be determined by chronographing it. We don't chrono at our level I matches either. Chronoing is mandatory in level III matches only.

In fact, we don't calibrate any poppers that we use for classifiers we send in....and this may be a shocker, we aren't the only ones doing this.

It's not an issue of being lazy. It is a matter of principal.

The calibration rule is a useless exercise!

Edited November 5, 2006 by omnia1911

[wide45]

It is a matter of principal.

Is your club affiliated with USPSA? Did yor club agree to run matches under USPSA rules? Do your written course descriptions mention which rules you are using?

You may not want to boast about your principles.

[omnia1911]

It is a matter of principal.

Is your club affiliated with USPSA? Did yor club agree to run matches under USPSA rules? Do your written course descriptions mention which rules you are using?

You may not want to boast about your principles.

All those clubs following the calibration rule (as written regarding the calibration ammo, calibration gun, calibration of poppers, and calibration challenges) for your level I matches raise your hand.

I have read other posts that use some variation of the calibration rule for level I matches. You didn't seem to challenge their affiliation commitment.

I stand by my principals.

BOD members have shot at the matches where our poppers aren't being calibrated. It is no secret as to what is being done, or not done. The club affiliation was never questioned knowing this.

Edited November 5, 2006 by omnia1911

[wide45]

Lets not go down this road.

The original question was

What are the advantages and/or disadvantages of forward falling poppers? From what I read about them at the Open/Production Nationals this year, the forward falling seem to have some problems in calibration and reliability. Our club uses the the backward falling and unless the ground gets really soft and the bases begin to settle we have not had any problems.

If the majority of clubs are not following the calibration rules we have, something is broken. It does not look like the use of forward falling steel will change that.

[omnia1911]

Lets not go down this road.

The original question was

What are the advantages and/or disadvantages of forward falling poppers? From what I read about them at the Open/Production Nationals this year, the forward falling seem to have some problems in calibration and reliability. Our club uses the the backward falling and unless the ground gets really soft and the bases begin to settle we have not had any problems.

If the majority of clubs are not following the calibration rules we have, something is broken. It does not look like the use of forward falling steel will change that.

I agree.