Ismi Guide Rod On G17 For Production?

[ysued]

Yep, there's a new Vanek without the trigger pin moved.

Good for them!!

The difference with the 34 and the 17 is that the guide rod doesn't protrude, it's not external.

IMHO, the rule should apply to both!! It's either good or bad for both, but not for good to make it legal for one aond not for the other, like I said previously, the fact that the Rod doesn't show on the 34 will make it quite easy for the "if you can't see it you ain't Cheating" mentality!!

Before you disagree that the Vanek ruling is different than this, read the Vanek ruling and see the pictures. An informed argument might change my mind. Bottom line. The Vanek ruling said if it's externally visible, it's illegal. The guide rod is just as visible as the Vanek, if not more so. The trigger has most of it's mass inside and concealed, just like the guide rod.

I never agreed or disagreed on the vanek trigger decision!!

As a matter of fact, I personally think that the Whole Trigger thing is detriemntal to our top shooters that use Glock!! They get so used to the light triggers in the US, that when they go to a major IPSC match and they go back to the 5 Lb Trigger, they are in a severe disadvantage!!

I must admit that the fact that more and more things are being approved for Production is not good for the sport!! Little by little the rules ger watered down and pretty soon your Production Gun will end up being a copy of a Limited gun , but in a minor Caliber and Double Action or Striker Operated. I thought that Productions was introduced to maike it easy for just about anyone to join and shoot what they had. Now it's turned into get a gun and spend $2K to make it competitive!! What does that remind you of??? This has happened in this sport twice already!! From the Original IPSC to Open race guns then from the Original Limited Class to today's $2K race Limited Guns!! What Next???

As far as putting a stock Glock end on, yes that would make it no longer different externally. Like I said, I don't care one way or the other about the guide rods. I just find it interested the rules decisions that seem to contradict each other. Unless someone can explain how they don't.

I tried to explain it earlier and you didn't believe me, so I don't think anything I say will be good for you. I just saw a Picture of the Original Vanek Trigger, I hate to day this, but it's not the same thing!! If I took the Original Glock Guide Rod and Tricked it tot the max, and beat the 2oz Ruling or if I toog a 3 Oz Tungsten Rod and used the Glock Tip, what would you say!!

I see the Differences and the Similarities in both cases...

But at the same time I see this:

1) Vanek(first Generation) YOu take a Glock Trigger, Drill a New Hole and cover-up the old one, YOu have an external Modification of an existing part.

2)ISMI Rod, this is a completely Different part, that is for the most part Internal, the only visible difference being that the Glock part has a Plastic cap and the ISMI has a 8-32 Buttton Head Screw. I could Play the game and make an Aluminum cap with an 8-32 thread that looks identical to the Glock part!!

3) The production Ruling was quoted earlier, OK, now that John Amidon has rules on the Guide Rods, there might be an addendum to the rules that says that SS Guide Rods are specifically allowed, would that make everyone happy??

4)Plastic Grip Plugs??? This adds no advantage, nor weight, but It's considered an External Modification!!! Tho one there beats the living crapola out of me!!

Ont thing though, even though I started the ball rolling for the ISMI Guide Rod Approval, Now I think that I should have keot my mouth shut and kept breaking Glock Guide Rods!!

[Nemo]

Ont thing though, even though I started the ball rolling for the ISMI Guide Rod Approval, Now I think that I should have keot my mouth shut and kept breaking Glock Guide Rods!!

I disagree with you on that, my friend. You had a question, asked it and received a determination.

Today I read some of the 14 pages on the Vanek ruling thread and the guide rod issue came up a couple of times. I also disagree with the members that said the guide rod shouldn't be legal. The ISMI guide rod, or other metallic guide rod that does not vary the weight of the gun by 2oz, does not alter the mechanical functioning of the pistol as designed. Changing pivoting points of the trigger system does.

Again, the ISMI guide rod changes the pistol as much as the Heinie sights. The rules specifically allow changing sights and now changing guide rods is also allowed.

$0.02

[driver8M3]

Again, the ISMI guide rod changes the pistol as much as the Heinie sights.

unfortunately, that's not the appropriate standard for allowing modifications.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Stock trigger on top, Vanek trigger on the bottom.

I'd say the end cap on the aftermarket guide rod is a bit more of a visible external modification, but what do I know.

Edited July 26, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[ysued]

Again, the ISMI guide rod changes the pistol as much as the Heinie sights.

unfortunately, that's not the appropriate standard for allowing modifications.

Then what would you think of Milling the living crap out of a Glock Slide to install a Melted Bomar Sight??

Would that be considered Changing the Appearance onf your Glock??

Or maybe an external Modification??

Would that be more Noticable thatn the Hex Screw??

Enquiring Minds would like to know!!

Stock trigger on top, Vanek trigger on the bottom.

I'd say the end cap on the aftermarket guide rod is a bit more of a visible external modification, but what do I know.

What I said about the Bomar Sights Melted onto a Glock Slide applies here too!!

Ont thing though, even though I started the ball rolling for the ISMI Guide Rod Approval, Now I think that I should have keot my mouth shut and kept breaking Glock Guide Rods!!

I disagree with you on that, my friend. You had a question, asked it and received a determination.

Today I read some of the 14 pages on the Vanek ruling thread and the guide rod issue came up a couple of times. I also disagree with the members that said the guide rod shouldn't be legal. The ISMI guide rod, or other metallic guide rod that does not vary the weight of the gun by 2oz, does not alter the mechanical functioning of the pistol as designed. Changing pivoting points of the trigger system does.

Again, the ISMI guide rod changes the pistol as much as the Heinie sights. The rules specifically allow changing sights and now changing guide rods is also allowed.

$0.02

OK, OK, you are right, again!!

Edited July 26, 2006 by ysued

[Nemo]

unfortunately, that's not the appropriate standard for allowing modifications.

True that, my Beemer-lover friend. The appropriate standard is the motions that ysued went through by submitting the ISMI guide rod to the NROI prior to using it in his pistol. Something that to my understanding was never done with Charlie's trigger system.

However, you do understand my point of the change in mechanical design? Do you?

I'm really sorry that you lost the ability to use your investment in Production division, but it is still legal in other 3. And I have more good news for ya' - although your Vanek trigger was deemed illegal in PD, you can still use your tungsten guide rod.

The milling of slides for installation of adjustable sights is another can of worms, not the subject of this thread. But since the thread starter brought it up here's my take (and not that it matters since I don't make anything legal or not); although they require a fairly visible external mod, they don't give a competitive advantage. The sights are still of the post&notch configuration. So if the shooter wants to pay what it cost to put them in his/her pistola, he/she can knock him/herself out. If it would've been my decision, it would've read: changing of sights specifically allowed provided they fit in the factory provided slide cuts.

Production division, Yamil wether you like it or not, is still a RACE, and the racers will always look for that extra edge. But please "mi pana" don't get caught up on the Cooper-doomsday-of-the-sport theory that we're killing the production game, letting it turn into another limited division by allowing dropped and offset holsters, fiber optic sights or bomars. If the targets are not shooting back at you, it is still a game, a young game that is still evolving and the rules are written or amended as we go.

Good calls from Mr. Amidon, both the guide rod and the trigger.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Nemo

[driver8M3]

although they require a fairly visible external mod, they don't give a competitive advantage.

whether or not an external change offers a competitive advantage varies with almost every shooter...and that is also not part of the process for allowing modifications.

there is no rule that says you can make minor external changes. there is only a rule that says NO EXTERNAL MODIFICATIONS (other than sights). that rule was strictly enforced with the vanek ruling...that little tiny visible area on the trigger was enough to get the vanek trigger tossed from production. and yet, in the case of the guiderod, JA has completely reversed himself and allowed a much more visible external modification.

none of this is meant to imply that i want aftermarket guiderods tossed from production. honestly, i dont care much. i've never lost a match to a guiderod. but i am interested in having a set of easily understood, consistently applied rules. and i dont see that here.

if uspsa wants to allow aftermarket guiderods (with different endcaps) in production, i think the proper method would be to add a rule specifically allowing them, as we have for sights, barrels and grips. a ruling from NROI that contradicts the written rules, as well as other NROI rulings, is the wrong way to do it.

Edited July 27, 2006 by driver8M3

[ysued]

although they require a fairly visible external mod, they don't give a competitive advantage.

whether or not an external change offers a competitive advantage varies with almost every shooter...and that is also not part of the process for allowing modifications.

I must agree with you 110%

I got Popped because of my own ignorance at Area 3 last year for having a plastic Grip Plug!! This Plug wans't going to make me win Jack Squat!! but I still got Popped and I had to shoot open!!

there is no rule that says you can make minor external changes. there is only a rule that says NO EXERNAL MODIFICATIONS (other than sights). that rule was strictly enforced with the vanek ruling...that little tiny visible area on the trigger was enough to get the vanek trigger tossed from production. and yet, in the case of the guiderod, JA has completely reversed himself and allowed a much more visible external modification.

We disagree here because you see the Screw head as an External mod and I see the Guiderod itself as a part that is different than the Original, not a Modification!!

If I had to Drill the Slide to fit the Guiderod, it would be a different story!!

But Like Heinie Sights, I put in a different Part!! and now, that different part is Specifically Approved as per NROI!!

none of this is meant to imply that i want aftermarket guiderods tossed from production. honestly, i dont care much. i've never lost a match to a guiderod. but i am interested in having a set of easily understood, consistently applied rules. and i dont see that here.

Me too!

if uspsa wants to allow aftermarket guiderods (with different endcaps) in production, i think the proper method would be to add a rule specifically allowing them, as we have for sights, barrels and grips. a ruling from NROI that contradicts the written rules, as well as other NROI rulings, is the wrong way to do it.

Yes, a Written addendum should be done!! Like them pesky Plastic Grip Plugs!!

On the Sights, even though according to my good buddy Nemo has been beaten to death here, I believe that Milling the Living snot to install a Melted Down set of Bomars in a Glock Slide, it's an External Modification!! When you need wo whip out the Bridgeport Milling Machine to install a part You are doing a Modification!!!!

[driver8M3]

We disagree here because you see the Screw head as an External mod and I see the Guiderod itself as a part that is different than the Original, not a Modification!!

If I had to Drill the Slide to fit the Guiderod, it would be a different story!!

But Like Heinie Sights, I put in a different Part!! and now, that different part is Specifically Approved as per NROI!!

again, there is a specific rule that allows you to change your sights. there is no similar rule to allow you to change your guiderod. therefore any change to the guiderod should be completely internal.

do you know that you are not allowed to replace your mag release with an aftermarket (non-glock) piece? that would also be a different piece, not a modification (as you say above)...but it's not allowed.

too bad about getting moved to open. thats a tough lesson, and i'm sure thats why you took the time to get JAs approval for the guiderod. i agree you've done everything correctly...i just disagree with JAs interpretation.

[ysued]

We disagree here because you see the Screw head as an External mod and I see the Guiderod itself as a part that is different than the Original, not a Modification!!

If I had to Drill the Slide to fit the Guiderod, it would be a different story!!

But Like Heinie Sights, I put in a different Part!! and now, that different part is Specifically Approved as per NROI!!

again, there is a specific rule that allows you to change your sights. there is no similar rule to allow you to change your guiderod. therefore any change to the guiderod should be completely internal.

OK, but I got this:

"Hi Yamil,

Tested the guide rod today, cannot see any reason that it would not be allowed in Production division.

You can use this email as authorization if you would like, but the metal guide rod is legal in Production.

Regards,

John Amidon

Director of NROI"

I take that as Specifically Approved!! And I bet that this will be a Rule in the near future!! Or at least I hope so, otherwise I'll have to carry a copy fo this E-mail with me to every big match I go to!!

do you know that you are not allowed to replace your mag release with an aftermarket (non-glock) piece? that would also be a different piece, not a modification (as you say above)...but it's not allowed.

That beats the Living snot out of me!! Go figure!!

too bad about getting moved to open. thats a tough lesson, and i'm sure thats why you took the time to get JAs approval for the guiderod. i agree you've done everything correctly...i just disagree with JAs interpretation.

Hey, what Pisses me off , and it was my fault, I checked on the Guiderod last year at Area 3, I was told it wasn't Kosher, I just didn;t check about the Plug!! Heck, I didn't even thought that it was an External Mod!!

[Flexmoney]

Lets not get too deep into the "specifically approved" talk.

We have the rule book as a source, then we have Official Rulings, which are posted on the USPSA website.

What you got from Amidon was a highly placed opinion.

And, he has been wrong before (though he is most often right).

I'd ask him and your Area Director to take it to the "official ruling" level if it were me.

[ysued]

Lets not get too deep inot the "specifically approved" talk.

We have the rule book as a source, then we have Official Rulings, which are posted on the USPSA website.

What you got from Amidon was a highly placed opinion.

And, he has been wrong before (though he is most often right).

I'd ask him and your Area Director to take it to the "official ruling" level if it were me.

Good Idea, I'll have Manny take it to the Board!!

Thanks

Y

[ysued]

Lets not get too deep inot the "specifically approved" talk.

We have the rule book as a source, then we have Official Rulings, which are posted on the USPSA website.

What you got from Amidon was a highly placed opinion.

And, he has been wrong before (though he is most often right).

I'd ask him and your Area Director to take it to the "official ruling" level if it were me.

Good Idea, I'll have Manny take it to the Board!!

Thanks

Y

Well, Area 3 Director Speaks!!

Manny Bragg E-Mailed me this morning, he said that if john said it was OK, I was "GOOD TO GO", and that this new Ruling would be covered on the new Rule Book!!

Y

[Flexmoney]

My man Manny is mistaken.

We just don't officiate USPSA matches on what "so-and-so said"...even if so-ans-so is the lead sayer.

The process, provided for us is..

1. The Rule Book.

2. The Official Rulings on the USPSA website.

3. Arbitration.

[ysued]

My man Manny is mistaken.

We just don't officiate USPSA matches on what "so-and-so said"...even if so-ans-so is the lead sayer.

The process, provided for us is..

1. The Rule Book.

2. The Official Rulings on the USPSA website.

3. Arbitration.

OK, then!!

Given that Manny will not be at the Next USPSA Board Meeting due to personal business, I'll pass both E-mails to Mike Voigt, and all other Area Directors!

This is interesting though...

I didn't know there was so much animosity in the ranks after the Vanek Trigger was disalowed!!

I couldn't care one way or another about the Vanek Trigger, as I'm not about to cough up the $200.00 for something is not ging to make me shoot any better!! I'm not at a shooting level that a Trigger will improve my shooting much!!

But like i said before, a lot of folks here seem to thik it't OK to Change the Operation of a firearm (vanek does change the way the guns was ariginally disigned to work by changing the Pivot point of the trigger) and by Milling the living Crap out of a Slide to install Bomars, but a Allen Button Head Screw gets everybody in a Tizzy!!

Heck, I don't have a horse in this race, but If I ever shot at the Nationals, I'll make sure to use the Glock Factory part, or if John Amidon Writes it up on Front Sight!!

But then again, I have an E-mail from John Amidon that clearly states that he approves it for Production, so......

If you feel strong about it, I'll be using it at the next Local Match in Jeff City, Anyone that's interested can cough Up the $100.00 and Arbitate it on a $15.00 match!! It will buy lots of Beers for everbody after the match!!

I'll pass your feelings to Manny though!!

[Nik Habicht]

My man Manny is mistaken.

We just don't officiate USPSA matches on what "so-and-so said"...even if so-ans-so is the lead sayer.

The process, provided for us is..

1. The Rule Book.

2. The Official Rulings on the USPSA website.

3. Arbitration.

Not necessarily: Unless I'm misinformed, any request for a JA rule/equipment interpretation of this type, or if it raises an issue previously unconsidered, is run past the BOD, and then published as an official ruling as a matter of course.....

[ysued]

My man Manny is mistaken.

We just don't officiate USPSA matches on what "so-and-so said"...even if so-ans-so is the lead sayer.

The process, provided for us is..

1. The Rule Book.

2. The Official Rulings on the USPSA website.

3. Arbitration.

Not necessarily: Unless I'm misinformed, any request for a JA rule/equipment interpretation of this type, or if it raises an issue previously unconsidered, is run past the BOD, and then published as an official ruling as a matter of course.....

In that case I bet John Amidon will be at the next BOD Meeting. This issue might be discussed.

[SRT Driver]

There was a similar question/answer to John A in regards to XD guide rods.

While the aftermarket XD guide rod looks different, John A said it is "OK" for Production since the aftermarket guide rod does not stick out as far as the stock part and if it does not increase overall weight more than 2oz.

XD guide rod

Edited July 28, 2006 by SRT Driver

[ysued]

There was a similar question/answer to John A in regards to XD guide rods.

While the aftermarket XD guide rod looks different, John A said it is "OK" for Production since the aftermarket guide rod does not stick out as far as the stock part and if it does not increase overall weight more than 2oz.

XD guide rod

Thanks, read that thread!!

I got John's OK too!! But there's so much animosity on the aftermath of the Vanek Decision that now every other modification will be scrutinized!!

Some here that were afected by the Vanek decision are now so angry at USPSA that they treat all decisions by USPSA as "How dare you approve that Doo-Hickey and you disaproved my $200.00 Trigger"

NEmo calls me the Closet Mall Ninja, just because I believe that Production should have stayed closer to IPSC Rules!! The only 2 IPSC Rules I don't like are:

1-The 5" barrel Limitations( I thiks it's unfair tot he G34 & G35)

2-Changing Sights, I believe sights can be exchanged, but they must fir the original Dovetail!! If you feel like you want to Mill the living crap out of your slide, shoot Limited or Limited 10!!

One IPSC Ruling I'm not 100% sure is that Nemo told me that IPSC allows Race Holsters in Production!! Is that true??

I dont even use race Holsters on Limited!!! Since I dropped my STI EDGE out of a Safariland 012, I use a Safariland 561 now!!

Other than that, I believe Production should stay PRODUCTION!! Just like the guns come out of the factory!! I guess Nemo will just kick the crap out of me now, but he does tht on a dalily basis!!

Y

[driver8M3]

Other than that, I believe Production should stay PRODUCTION!! Just like the guns come out of the factory!! I guess Nemo will just kick the crap out of me now, but he does tht on a dalily basis!!

so...do you think aftermarket guiderods should be legal, or not? glocks dont come from the factory with steel guiderods.

ipsc production does indeed allow race holsters.

Edited July 28, 2006 by driver8M3

[ysued]

Other than that, I believe Production should stay PRODUCTION!! Just like the guns come out of the factory!! I guess Nemo will just kick the crap out of me now, but he does tht on a dalily basis!!

so...do you think aftermarket guiderods should be legal, or not? glocks dont come from the factory with steel guiderods.

ipsc production does indeed allow race holsters.

The Purist part of me would rather it stay PRODUCTION!!

NO Milled Bomars, No Triggers, Nothing!!

Nemo and I argue about this on a daily basis!!

His logic is one of evolution, my view is "when will it stop?"

But the damn lazy part of me would like an easier way to change recoil springs!!

I have broken so many Glock Guide Rods it's not even funny!!

If I could find a Guide Rod that was plastic, with the easily replaceble Tip, I would go for that!! I don't give a Rats A$$ if the rod is made of SS, Titanium, Aluminum, Depleted Uranium, Scandium or Un-Obtanium, as long as I can replace my Springs with reasonable ease!!

I didn't approach John with the intention af gaming anyting, or getting a competitive advantage, I'm just freaking Lazy and got sick and tired of buying Glock Guide Rods everytime I broke one!! I know they are $4.00 at Brownells, But I'm cheap too!!

BTW, I want to repalce Springs on my Glock because Stock springs SUCK!! ISMI Springs are just great!!

Edited July 28, 2006 by ysued

[SRT Driver]

I have broken so many Glock Guide Rods it's not even funny!!

Well, there you go. The SS guide rod enhances reliablity and that is OK by the rules. And no one can tell you you haven't broken them.

FWIW, I was affected by the Vanek ruling but agree with the ruling 100%, however.

In regards to the other stuff..so what! As long as you don't alter the frame or the slide except for sights and use stock external parts like slide stops and mag releases, go for it.

According to the current rules, everything else is fair game. If it doesn't say you can't..you can!!!! And until that changes, there is no point to argue.

[ysued]

I have broken so many Glock Guide Rods it's not even funny!!

Well, there you go. The SS guide rod enhances reliablity and that is OK by the rules. And no one can tell you you haven't broken them.

I thought so too, but by some folks reaction here, I felt like I had comitted a vicious crime, or even worse, I had turned inot a Liberal Democrat!!

FWIW, I was affected by the Vanek ruling but agree with the ruling 100%, however.

You have my respect!!! I feel the same way about the Platic Grip Plug!! I was directly affected by it when I was placed on Open class at the 2005 Area 3, but I agree with the ruling!!

In regards to the other stuff..so what! As long as you don't alter the frame or the slide except for sights and use stock external parts like slide stops and mag releases, go for it.

I will!!

According to the current rules, everything else is fair game. If it doesn't say you can't..you can!!!! And until that changes, there is no point to argue.

Again, I must agree with you 100%

And to take things one step further, the NROI now says that Aftermarket Guide Rods are Legal for Production as long as they don't increase the weight of a Firearm more than 2oz!!

There you go!!

[Chuck Anderson]

According to the current rules, everything else is fair game. If it doesn't say you can't..you can!!!! And until that changes, there is no point to argue.

That's not true and many board members and John Amidon have said so.

The problem with Production and the rules is that the Board won't make up their minds what they want the division to be. Is it an entry division or a place for manufacturers to build better DA guns. Is it designed to bring in new sponsors or new shooters. I really don't care either way, but someone needs to make a dang decision before making arbitrary rules decisions that conflict each other.

I spent the weekend shooting with an Area Director from a different area and it's interesting to hear how different his opinion of what Production should be from my own and from my Area Directors.

As far as the guide rod issue goes, like I said, I don't care about the specific decision. My concern is the process that went into it. It is a externally visible change. The Vanek ruling was based solely on the visible change. If John said that it was banned because it changes the mechanical advantage, fine, I have no problem with it. But based solely on the fact that he based it solely on the external change I don't understand what the difference is.

That said I also spent 10 minutes arguing in person with John on Saturday about his vertical foregrip interpretation. Which since it's not posted or listed anywhere is that Vertical foregrips are illegal in Limited and Tactical Divisions and if they're on at the beginning of the match in Open must stay on. Removing is subject to a DQ. This has no precedent and I know several shooters were using vert foregrips in these divisions having no idea of this new, "Rule".

[SRT Driver]

That's not true and many board members and John Amidon have said so.

I'll disagree and put my $100 arbitration money on it! This is called production..not bone stock, like IPSC.

Interpretation and intent are two of the most universally misused terms in this sport.

This debate won't end even if the new rules define what is considered internal and external or enhances reliablity.

For now, if John A says its within the rules you might as well get the chisel, IMHO.