Vince Pinto Posted November 28, 2002 Author Share Posted November 28, 2002 Your final paragraph is self-contradictory. If we remove the revised (not proposed) additional wording to Rule 8.1, then if a competitor fails to load his chamber as required by our standard Handgun Ready Conditions, then he must be restarted. It's easy for an RO to see that your hands, feet and body are in the required start position, but it's not obvious whether your chamber is loaded. The extra wording just means there is no need for a restart if a competitor fails to load his chamber. Remember a good stage briefing says "Gun in the ready condition and holstered, standing wholly within the marked area, hands hanging naturally by your sides". I've heard some terrible stage briefings in my time, but I've never heard one that said "Chamber loaded, magazine inserted etc.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 Vince, "The extra wording just means there is no need for a restart if a competitor fails to load his chamber" But you stated that: 6) If, on the beep, the competitor draws his gun and goes "click" and when he racks his slide nothing comes out, then I know he didn't have a loaded chamber and I would be required to stop him because he did not comply with 8.1 as presently stated (since modifed by IPSC). What am I missing? In your n. 6), did you mean that new rule 8.1 overcomes the action you were required to perform as a RO (stop and re-start)? Old behaviour reported just for comparison with new rule, no more enforced? Sometimes I wish I was born english mothertongue : I have difficulties in understanding each single sentence (my doctor says this is something IQ related...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 28, 2002 Author Share Posted November 28, 2002 You asked: "In your n. 6), did you mean that new rule 8.1 overcomes the action you were required to perform as a RO (stop and re-start)? Old behaviour reported just for comparison with new rule, no more enforced?". Answer: Yes. Your English is just fine, pisano ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Quote: from Flexmoney on 12:31 pm on Nov. 26, 2002 Darth...the force is not with you on this one. (tongue in cheek mode) If we are going to go by the book, then lets go by the book... 8.1 is Handgun Ready Conditions (note the words "Handgun" & "Condition" ) 8.2 is "Ready Position. 8.3.1 clearly states the required READY POSITION. the Ready POSITION is covered in 8.2, with 8.2.1 stating that the hangun is LOADED, made safe and holstered or positioned as specified in the stage briefing. The wording here, when carefully read (and, as YOU stated in the other thread), requires the RO to assist the shooter...at this point (before the "Are You Ready" is given). As a matter of fact...the way it is written...a competitor may have a good chance at an arb if the RO doesn't inform the shooter that his gun isn't loaded. (Yeah, I know that 8.1.2 doesn't mention the mag. But, as an RO, how can you assume the chamber is loaded if there is no mag in the gun?) Splitting hairs here...but a potential arb exists (which slows down the match). I will stand by my earlier post. In fact, I will state that it is the duty of the RO to ensure the shooter has a loaded blaster. and...this isn't timer holding...it is RO'ing, McDonald's is down the hall. (tongue in cheek mode off) 10.3.15 defines a loaded handgun. A loaded handgun is defined as a gun having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in the magazine inserted in the gun. The operative word is "or". It sounds like this rule supports Vince's position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Too late at night for me to dig my rule book out...going off memory... A loaded handgun is defined as a gun having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in the magazine inserted in the gun. It could be argued that the LAMR, which tells the RO not to proceed until the shooter is in the "...ready postion", puts the responsibility on the RO to see that the gun is loaded (8.2.1). 10.3.15 deals with DQ's. It definition of a loaded gun differs from the "Handgun Ready Conditions" described in Section 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 29, 2002 Author Share Posted November 29, 2002 Jeez Flex, You're really having a hard time understanding this, huh? Yes, unless the written stage briefing requires "chamber loaded, mag inserted", the default handgun ready conditions in 8.2.1 apply. This means the chamber must be loaded, safety applied etc. (no mention of magazine). Yes, if the competitor does not have a loaded chamber, he's not in compliance with the default handgun ready conditions (only until 1 January 2003 when the revised IPSC rule takes effect). With feet, hands, stance & gun placement, it's easy to visually check compliance but, in respect of a loaded chamber, there are only two ways to check: A) Ask the competitor to "press check" the slide for you before he holsters; or Wait for the first shot. If the gun goes "click" and no round or case is ejected when the competitor racks his slide, stop him, reload him and then restart him (as stated in Point 6 of my 27 November posting). Yes, 8.3.1 tells the RO to proceed after the competitor is in compliance, but I use Plan B as I've never experienced a competitor with an empty chamber. Of course if you prefer, use Plan A, but I think it's unnecessary to subject every competitor to a "press check" inspection when the problem rarely, if ever occurs. But there's no way this matter should ever go to Arbitration. It's a no brainer. Anyway, if you're still not clear, let me know, because I'm willing to continue for as long as it takes to help you understand this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Quote: from Flexmoney on 1:07 am on Nov. 29, 2002 Too late at night for me to dig my rule book out...going off memory... A loaded handgun is defined as a gun having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in the magazine inserted in the gun. It could be argued that the LAMR, which tells the RO not to proceed until the shooter is in the "...ready postion", puts the responsibility on the RO to see that the gun is loaded (8.2.1). 10.3.15 deals with DQ's. It definition of a loaded gun differs from the "Handgun Ready Conditions" described in Section 8 8.2.1 no longer uses the word "loaded", but uses the word "prepared". 8.1.2 only requires that the chamber is loaded, as does 10.3.15. Yes, 10.3.15 deals with a DQ, but you need to address the context of this rule. It is in regards to only loading a handgun on the firing line when directed to do so by the RO. This is a ready position issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Jeez Vince, You're really having a hard time understanding this, huh? It not that I "don't get it". Far from that. I disagree with your take on it. All I am saying is, with the current wording, the RO has to ensure that the shooter is in the "Ready Postion" before they can continue (with the Are You Ready). The "Ready Postition" includes a loaded gun. Option B never can happen (by the book). By the book, the RO doesn't proceed until the gun is loaded. That sure seems like a lot to put on the RO...we might be better off at McD's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 29, 2002 Author Share Posted November 29, 2002 Flex, OK, you win. You've beaten me to a pulp. For the next 30 days, I'll require every competitor to "press check" his gun for me so that I'm certain he has a round chambered. In fact, I'm also gonna call this a "Flex Check" in your honour. On 1 January 2003, when the new wording of IPSC rule 8.1 comes into effect, I won't even need Plan B, eventhough I've never used it in over 10 years. So, you want fries with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Quote: from Flexmoney on 11:14 am on Nov. 29, 2002 Jeez Vince, You're really having a hard time understanding this, huh? It not that I "don't get it". Far from that. I disagree with your take on it. All I am saying is, with the current wording, the RO has to ensure that the shooter is in the "Ready Postion" before they can continue (with the Are You Ready). The "Ready Postition" includes a loaded gun. Option B never can happen (by the book). By the book, the RO doesn't proceed until the gun is loaded. That sure seems like a lot to put on the RO...we might be better off at McD's Boy, am I glad 8.2.1 is being changed from "loaded" to "prepared". Where's the ketsup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 cheeseburger...cheeseburger...no pepsi...coke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 OR the smart competitor could make checking the chamber after he racks the action, and tugging on the magazine to make sure it's clicked into place after insertion, a part of his personal Load And Make Ready ritual, ensuring this situation never arises for him. I know I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 There you go. An intelligent shooter who prefers to check his own equipment instead of blaming the RO or the rules or the Government for a personal brain fade. Lemme see now. There's Duane, there's me, there's ah, um, er, there's Duane, there's me, there's ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 LOL!! Literally.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I agree. Lets get the rule book in order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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