4756, 231 And Longshot In .38 Special

[revchuck]

Folks - I've pretty much committed myself to participate in a major USPSA match, shooting a 4" revolver. My match ammo will use Berry's 158 grain RN in .38 Special brass, loaded to 1.45". I've determined that 4756 and Longshot should work to make Minor, and already found out that 231 does from my guns. I've picked these powders because the data says I should be able to make Minor, and I have enough of each on hand to load the 1k bullets I have.

Does anyone have any experience with these in this context? I'm concerned that these powders may be overly dirty (I already found that 231 is). Would using Fed 200s rather than 100s help on this? Any recommended recipes?

I had originally planned to do a long, drawn-out load development plan this summer (I'm a teacher), but the match is before the end of the school year.

Thanks!

[TonyT]

Stay away from the Fed200 magnum primer. In 38 Special all you require is the standard Federal primer.

I tried a few loads with SR-4756 and the 158 gr. Star Jacketed bullet. As I remember it was not particularly dirty and it did meter well. Never followed up with more experimentation since I switched to a 130 gr. Star FMJ with Titegroup for my 38 Special load.

[gm iprod]

As a slow burning powder Longshot is going to be awful dirty, in fact Hodgdon don't list it as far as I know for light loads.

4756 may also be dirty but nowhere near as bad as Longshot, it is similar in burn rate to WW540 and HS6.

231 would be my best choice of the three you list, but try and get some Clays and that will be clean as a whistle, same for N320. TG is a starter for this loads as well.

All the following make Minor PF

2.8gr Clays

3.2gr TiteGroup

3.7gr HP38

3.8gr 700-X

3.1gr Red Dot

4.0gr 231

I have no loads showing for 4756, but a freind used around 5.0grains as a start point. He recalls settling at 5.2grains but was loading longer than 1.45", but soon reverted to a faster powder as it turned out to be cleaner and more accurate.

[revchuck]

gmprod - First, thanks for the data!

There's a big difference between Hodgdon's data and my experiences. They use a 7.7" pressure barrel that gives 3.2 grains of TiteGroup as making minor, but in my 4" M67 it took 4.1 grains for 158 grain Zero RNLs (4.3 is a max +P load for jacketed bullets, according to Hodgdon). I was happy with TG's performance until I noticed the flame cut on the top strap. The whole reason behind this search of mine is to find loads which are easier on the gun. My thinking is slower powder = less pressure for Minor = less wear. Additionally, the Berry's bullets I'm using are plated, which require more powder than plain lead to make the same velocity.

I realize that flame cutting only goes so far and then stops, and that the downside to slower powders - dirtier burning, which is far more important in revolvers than in autos - may be a poor trade-off. I'm still in the research phase. If it doesn't pan out, I'll just use a faster powder.

[HSMITH]

Chuck, have you tried Clays? I have put 40K PLUS 38's loaded with Clays through a M19 of mine and the flame cutting and forcing cone erosion is really pretty light. It also should make minor without much effort or +P loadings.

I REALLY dislike 231 in low pressure loadings, the chambers being filthy are a problem as are the unburned flakes and partially burned flakes that end up under the extractor star....

[revchuck]

Chuck, have you tried Clays? I have put 40K PLUS 38's loaded with Clays through a M19 of mine and the flame cutting and forcing cone erosion is really pretty light. It also should make minor without much effort or +P loadings.

I REALLY dislike 231 in low pressure loadings, the chambers being filthy are a problem as are the unburned flakes and partially burned flakes that end up under the extractor star....

I haven't, but I just called my FLD and had him put his last pound of Clays back for me. It doesn't look like I 'll be able to make minor using Hodgdon's data, but I'm willing to fudge a little. My problem is that I have .38 Special revolvers as well as .357s; data that won't strain my M19 or M13 might be rough on my M10s and M67.

[HSMITH]

Well, be prepared to get really spoiled. Clays is clean and soft shooting.

IIRC I made minor with no problems using factory data and lead bullets, never tried with jacketed or plated.... My 19 has about .009" gap too, a fairly slow gun and really slow compared to a '49 vintage K38 CM 4" I have.

Clays gets hinky and spikes pressure around 40-45K PSI (SWAG), below that it is pretty linear and predictable. Burn temp is pretty hot and it will lead barrels with poor bullet lube and/or ill fitting bullets with warm to hot loads.

My data has a 158 LSWC at 1.475" making 137.5 PF with 3.1 grains at 15K cup, but the barrel is 7.7". A 4" gun will probably lose 75 FPS or a little more putting it right at 125 PF. You will have to see what your gun will do and adjust the loads as needed.

With a good bullet shape and good speed loaders a M15 4" and 158's over Clays would make a really good competition gun. I may just bring it out this fall and see what shakes out...

[gm iprod]

Revchuck,

As far as I understand the slower powders will flame cut more. But Sphericals do flame cut worse than extruded or flake at the same burn rate.

I have always got very close to Hodgdons data but I use a super tight 6" 686. Very little cylinder gap and very snug lockup, and load about .025 - .040" shorter than they suggest. In MY gun this evens out the barrel difference problem.

I have used real jacketed projectiles and yes you need more powder o make minor but the presures never really go past 20KCUP as far as I have been informed. Check Hodgdons data on the 38Special +P, these should make minor in your gun.

HSMITH is right on about Clays. I like it a lot and can get minor with the heavier Lead and Jacketed projectiles but again care is required. Flame cutting not a problem in my gun. I have an old 686 that would have had 200,000+ rounds through with all sorts of loads. Most by the two previous owners to me. I used this gun to shoot the 1999 NRA AP World Shoot, I came forth in Stock Gun (when real stock guns were used, not the crap we put up with at the Cup) with a shit score (nothing to do with the gun. This gun groups 3" at 50Y of a rest with very much anything). The gun that has been slicked up a little to give the data above was used at the same shoot by a freind of mine (NEVER lend guns to guys that can shoot properly) to come first.

[revchuck]

gmiprod and HSMITH - Thanks for the replies! I bought a pound of Clays today, and have put up a thread asking for additional input. Loading is going to have to wait, though; I've got to finish my roof this weekend (thanks, Hurricane Rita).