New Kid

[TinCan]

Hello All- I'm the new kid on the block. I'm a long retired bullseye shooter (last match 1981) who just recently started shooting again with two IPSC type local matches. Now it looks like I may be firing a 3-gun match in a few weeks. I've never seen a 3-gun match so I really have no idea what I have in store for myself.

So one question would be which rifle? I have an HK93 that I can fit an inexpensive red dot optic on. I have an Olympic 223 AR type carbine with the collapsible stock and I have a couple of ruger mini-14's.

If I can get comfortable with the red dot I imagine I'll fire in the tactical class.

So which do you think? Is the HK too long? Are there other reasons to go with the AR type?

Do folks use slings on their rifles?

Do you wear your sidearm in a holster while shooting the rifle and shotgun stages?

Is there prone rifle shooting and do you bring mats, etc?

Sorry for all the beginner questions.

Thanks

[Overkill]

I'd shoot the Oly hands down provided its reliable...if its flaky go with what ever is reliable. At most matches the AR will provide a nice balance of speed power and accuracy.

Most dont shoot with slings. A carry sling is fine. A shooting sling is nice for a long target as long as you can get in and out of it quickly. A wearable sling will likely be a PITA.

Whether you wear your sidearm or not depends on you and your holster. The open gunners dont generally bag and unbag....limited shooters tend to wear them.

If you're required to go prone there will usually be carpet as part of the stage props or you'll get to just tough it out.

[kellyn]

Shoot whatever you are most comfortable with BUT MAKE SURE IT'S ZEROED. If you like 3 Gun, you'll end up shooting an AR as HKs are not exactly competitive. The AR15 has had so much development that it now stands heads and shoulders abouve any other rifle for practical (and highpower!) competition. But don't run out and blow a bunch of money until you know what you're getting into.

The HK is not too long. It just kicks too much, has an atrocious trigger and crappy sights! But they are reliable! The most important factor. So if that's what you like, go shoot it.

Most people do not use shooting slings. However, occassionaly I do using a "ching" or CW sling because they're fast to get in and out of. The shooting slings used by highpower and bullseye guys tend to be to slow and restrictive for 3 gun shooting. Plus 3 gunners get to use their magazines as a monopod, something that Highpower competitors would be forced to walk the plank for.

Be prepared to roll in the dirt. Usually mats are not provided so have some knee and elbow pads - a necessary part of every three gunners kit. Will there be prone shooting at your match? Who knows? That's one of the thrills of 3 gun, you have to master and be able to employ a whole host of skills. I may choose to go prone where you may have chosen to shoot offhand or vice versa. But remember, prone is your friend!

I don't wear my pistol unless 1) the stage or match requires it or 2) it's a match that lets you rely on your pistol as a backup to the other guns. That's only to protect my pistol from uneccessary damage. Many people like to carry their pistols during the whole match. But make sure your holster provides enough retention while you go prone and get back up again.

And make sure your rifle is zeroed. Good luck!

[wsimpso1]

Tin Can,

Three-Gun is great fun!

The AR is fine for the first match. Hell, so is an M-1 and a dozen en-bloc clips. Whatever it is, make sure that it is reliable, cleaned and oiled, and that you have a decent zero. I like to set mine up to be on at 50 yards, which puts it on again at 200 meters or so, no more than 2" high between 50 and 200 yards, and no more than 2.8 inches low on really close targets. Remember that if they paint everything but the upper A/B zone black on an array of really close targets. Know where it will hit over the variety of distances for the match. Have enough reload mags or clips handy and make sure that you know how to reload while maintaining control of the muzzle.

Nobody talked about the third gun. Many 3-Gun shoots are pistol friendly, that is the shotgun stages can be fired with a pistol. If you have a M1100, clean and oil it and then shoot it. If you have a pump, same deal. Know where it hits. You may have small targets at 5 m, and the pattern will not be big, you will have to center the pattern on the target.

Many shotgun stages go 11 to 22 rounds, so find a way to have 25 rounds either in the gun or otherwise available when the beeper goes off. People who are into the game have 9 rounds (standard gun) or 11 rounds (open gun) in the gun, but whatever you have is fine for now. I have even advised people with auto-eject doubles to shoot them, atleast until someone offers to loan a more suitable shotgun. People who are into it will have the rest in wrist holders, bandoliers, belt carriers, etc. For your first shoot, coat pockets will do, but you need to know how to stuff shells cleanly. Right now, just being able to load with muzzle control and without fumbling is way more important than speed.

Billski

[George]

To specifically answer "which rifle?"

The AR, hands down. It's what you will use in the long run anyway unless you go for the big bore Heavy Metal equipment division in which case the HK will be a good starting point (I agree with Kelly about it's shootability though, not great).

Get plenty of 30 round mags that work (new DPMS are good and cheap) for the AR and go shoot the heck out of it to make sure you and it are together.

I figure the easiest zero is at 40-50 yards with commercial 55gr ball. That will put you back on at 200-225 but do be sure to verify it at 200.

Your 30 round mag is your prone shooting friend (monopodding as Kelly mentioned). Learn to jam it into the ground, lock the buttstock in your shoulder and hose them LD targets like you are a tripod mounted, crew served weapon ;-)

If you want optics (good idea for the far stuff and legal in Tactical division), just mount a cheap low powered variable on the carry handle with a cheap mount and it will work for now. No sense buying into expensive stuff until you have a nice flat top AR.

--

Regards,

[TinCan]

Thanks Guys - for all your input. I'm going with the AR. I picked up some 30 round mags and a simmons 1.5 x 5 scope. I 've got in zeroed in at 50 yards and pout a few hundred rounds through it. I was hoping to get out t o practice this weekend, but it looks like rain all weekend. Since I wrote the orignal post, the match directors have decreased the shotgun stages to 25 rounds and increased the rifle to 250. Should be fun. Thanks again.

To specifically answer "which rifle?"

The AR, hands down. It's what you will use in the long run anyway unless you go for the big bore Heavy Metal equipment division in which case the HK will be a good starting point (I agree with Kelly about it's shootability though, not great).

Get plenty of 30 round mags that work (new DPMS are good and cheap) for the AR and go shoot the heck out of it to make sure you and it are together.

I figure the easiest zero is at 40-50 yards with commercial 55gr ball. That will put you back on at 200-225 but do be sure to verify it at 200.

Your 30 round mag is your prone shooting friend (monopodding as Kelly mentioned). Learn to jam it into the ground, lock the buttstock in your shoulder and hose them LD targets like you are a tripod mounted, crew served weapon ;-)

If you want optics (good idea for the far stuff and legal in Tactical division), just mount a cheap low powered variable on the carry handle with a cheap mount and it will work for now. No sense buying into expensive stuff until you have a nice flat top AR.

--

Regards,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited October 9, 2005 by TinCan

[uscbigdawg]

As George said...know your zeroes/hold-overs. Computer software to compute them works (with good software), but prove it on the range.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic

249th MP Detachment (EACF)

Camp Humphreys, ROK

[TinCan]

Thank you all for your help. The West Point match went well, despite the strong winds. The wind kept knocking some of the steel down, but at least it wasn't very cold. We haven't gotten the results yet, I think I shot accurately, but very slow. I don't think I finished last - my buddy was even slower than me. The only real problem I had with the rifle was fully seating the magazine on one of the stages, but I'm sure that was my fault. All in all, it was a great day.

[ArnisAndyz]

I just read through this post and have a few comments...

He said he has an HK93 which is 223 caliber. From your comments "kicks to much" or "HK can be used for Heman" leads me to believe you guys think its the HK91 308 caliber. The HK93 is a very light recoiling rifle (probably lighter than an AR because of its weight). I shoot an HK91 in HeMan. Sometimes I shoot it in limited and get scored as major. I know I'll never win it, but I seem to be able to finsish in the middle of the pack because so many ARs at my local level jam or prove to be unreliable. Please note I mentioned LOCAL LEVEL where your "average" guy has a tacticalized Olympic AR.

The HK93 CAN be competitive with the ARs at the local level. IMHO the delayed blowback action is MUCH more reliable than the gas system of the AR. The HKs don't have a bolt hold open so just don't run the gun dry where you have to work that left-sided charging handle. HKs respond well to trigger jobs, and the sights are ok, but not great. for close range I usually look over the rear sight and aim a little low putting the target in that big front circle, it works for me.

I would hold off on the optics and shoot in limited for now. Shoot both rifles n a match and see what works for you.