caps and Jim

[Jim Norman]

In your first example of 1 popper behind 2 penalty poppers, you could earn up to a maximum of 4 No-Shoot penalties.

Gee, where's Jim or Jerry when ya need them to tell us again why that's not enough penalties (upside 5 points, downside -40 points)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, You asked for it:

Bullets NEVER MISS. They ALWAYS HIT SOMETHING. Think of a small town street, there are only two people visible, (the N/S that you see), but there are many others just on the other side of a pair of drawn curtains. Your hits on a N/S represent those errant rounds that failed to only strike the Shoot targets.

Yes we could argue then that all misses, that is any shot fired should count and that if you shoot 20 rounds on a 15 round stage and we can only account for the 15 alphas, the remaining 5 should be accessed a penalty. That would have several problems. We'd need to account for all rounds before and after each stage, which could be done, but would radically slow down the match, so in order not to radically change the sport, I suggest that those unaccounted for rounds, the ones that are fired but strike neither a Shoot or a No-Shoot are those rounds that hit building walls and didn't penetrate. But back to the beginning, count all the hits on the N/S targets since they represent the N/S that are down the street behind the closed curtains.

Jim Norman

[caps]

Bullets NEVER MISS. They ALWAYS HIT SOMETHING. Think of a small town street, there are only two people visible, (the N/S that you see), but there are many others just on the other side of a pair of drawn curtains. Your hits on a N/S represent those errant rounds that failed to only strike the Shoot targets.

Sounds like flawed logic to me. There are two bad guys visible in front of one good guy visible. How can you make up other people who aren't there as you go along? If you want to count all hits on the good guys, how come you don't want to count all the hits on the bad guys?

[Jim Norman]

Bullets NEVER MISS. They ALWAYS HIT SOMETHING. Think of a small town street, there are only two people visible, (the N/S that you see), but there are many others just on the other side of a pair of drawn curtains. Your hits on a N/S represent those errant rounds that failed to only strike the Shoot targets.

Sounds like flawed logic to me. There are two bad guys visible in front of one good guy visible. How can you make up other people who aren't there as you go along? If you want to count all hits on the good guys, how come you don't want to count all the hits on the bad guys?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was going to take this private, but I thought of a better way to say what I and others have been saying.

Hitting a N/S shows you are not in control of your shooting. One time is bad. I could argue that if you hit a "Good-Guy" you should zero a stage/ that would change the entire flavor of USPSA/IPSC. I am not trying to do that, but from day one we counted all the hits on a N/S. In fact it used to be that you could score below zero on a stage!

I am not "making up" the additional hits on the N/S, I am saying that we should count everytime you hit an unintended target, ie., a No-Shoot. It shows that you are not in control of your shooting. I used the 'people down the street" as a way to try to get the idea across that bullets all go some place when you fire them. As to noot counting all the hits on a scoring target: We REQUIRE you to hit a target a certain number of times, that can be 1-12 times! we do count ALL of the REQUIRED hits. We should therefore count all of our penalty hits sine we are NEVER supposed to hit a N/S, which is why we call themm No-Shoots.

Jim Norman

[caps]

Kyle, I hope you don't mind me asking Jim another question coz I'm trying to understand his logic:

Hitting a N/S shows you are not in control of your shooting.

But that's true of misses too, but we only count 1 on steel and 2 on paper, right?

[Jim Norman]

Kyle, I hope you don't mind me asking Jim another question coz I'm trying to understand his logic:

Hitting a N/S shows you are not in control of your shooting.

But that's true of misses too, but we only count 1 on steel and 2 on paper, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

caps, my friend. It is true that we do only count misses to the number of required hits. EXCEPT in a Virginia Count Stage where we count EVERY shot. Extra shots are a penalty, extra hits are a penalty and N/S hits still count.

I think that if you run through a stage firing willy-nilly and miss your intended targets while hitting unintended targets you should get a penalty for it. The argument that we only count two hits is not truly valid as we do actually count up to 12 hits. I would be happier with the new rules IF they accounted for the maximum number of penalty hits on a target is equal to the maximum number of hits on an adjacent scoring target, but that doesn't address a free-standing N/S in the middle of a field of targets.

I could have 4 N/S targets with 3 or 4 Shoots inserted into the spaces between them, arranged so that the shoots were obscured first by one N/s, and then by another. Your hits on the N/S could easily represent missed shots on several shoot targets engaged from different points of view.

Just this Sunday we had a stage where you started out standing facing one shoot target, there were two others that were obscured from the start position by multiple N/S's, as you moved left into the COF, the first target was blocked and the others became visible and then blocked again, often the same N/S blocked your view, first of A, then of B, then of C, then of A again. It would have been easy to have multiple points of engagement where you could have a N/S on N/S-1 while engaging each of the shoots. under the new rules, you would only have a 20 point penalty, but your buddy with the same number of misses (hits on N/S's) but with his hits on 3 different N/s's would get eh full 30 points off his score! You could have exactly the same number of A, B, C, & D hits, the same number of N/S hits and the same exact time, but you win because he hit two N/S's and you got all yours on one N/S.

Now, as Kyle indicated, this discussion is really outside the bounds of this thread and unfortunately also it seems outside the bounds of most all places, which is too bad. If you would like, I can draw up a stage or two and e-mail them to you after I return from the Nationals and we can continue this in private so as not to cause trouble.

Kyle, thank you for allowing this last bit in. Please feel free to close this.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Kyle, I hope you don't mind me asking Jim another question coz I'm trying to understand his logic:

Caps.

I do mind. That was why I posted with the green lettering and asked that you two quit drifting this thread. Those that are trying to figure out the original question don't need the confusion.

When you have a question that is outside the realm of the current thread...start a new thread. Simple.

And, if the topic is outside of that allowed on the forum, send the perosn an email or a PM.

[Flexmoney]

I split the drift out into this thread.

[Flexmoney]

So...now I'll throw in.

With the red (old) rule book, you got what you earned. Hit a No-shoot six times...earn six penalties.

With the green (current) rule book...a shooter can get some freebies. Anything over two, only counts as two penalties.

The red book version was the "tough love" version...learn to shoot better or burn away your points.

The green book version is the "we love ya buddy" version. You still feel bad about hitting the NS's, but the RO doesn't have to feel bad about only giving you two (max).

Since we have had the 2 max with the green book for a while now...I have noticed that few RO's actually remember that they are only supposed to award two max. (I have had to remind RO's of this a number of times...a few of those RO's have been Match Directors.)

[caps]

If you would like, I can draw up a stage or two and e-mail them to you after I return from the Nationals and we can continue this in private so as not to cause trouble.

Thanks, but no thanks, coz I don't need a private hammering. I like the rule the way it is now. It's the same for everybody, so no big deal.

Kyle, thanks for the split.

[Jim Norman]

Kyle please feel free to close this thread anytime.

I agree that the new rules are what they are and that that is what we live with.

As to "hammering" caps, Offering to provide evidence of situations were te new rule flls a bit flat is not hammering. Offering to correspond privately so as not to annoy the rest of the group is not wrong, but is the proper way to deal with situations like this.

I will always feel that the new rule is wrong, even when it on occasion helps me. I further realize that this is a game and we do keep score on paper.

Many people wiser than I have agreed that there are problems with the rule as it stands. To me the best fix is to go back to the way it ws, the second best is to allow parity between Shoot and N/S hit counts. That is if the N/S is placed on a target or targets that can receive a total of more than 2 hits, then the N/S should also receive a maximum number of hits that is equal.

My last point is that my comments regrding this were invited, even if only tongue in cheek. People, please relize, I am a man with an opinion and I am not afraid tro use it.

Jim Norman