How About Some Auto Advice?

[jm951]

Ok, at the last match, my old Mossy 500 started having extraction problems. It seemed to be heat related but, since the gun is at least 25 years old, very loose, and I want to speed up a bit, an auto is on the new aquisition list. The problem is that it's coming at at bad time when coin is in somewhat short supply, so no Benellis or SX2. My current class is the "heavy metal" group since I'm shooting FN FAL 308, G21 45acp and Moss 500 12ga. Not that I deliberately set it up that way, just that's what was in the gun cabinet when I got hooked into 3 gun.

Here are my current lines of thought-

The Saiga is very interesting. There is some info out there, but the gun is hard to find. A couple of Q's- does it come with choke tubes, how is the reliability, and what class would it be in?

I could get a cosmetically impaired 1100 or 1187 and add the goodies I want.

I haven't heard if a Stoeger can take any aftermarket parts, like an extended magazine and what is its long term reliability.

Walmart has a cheap line of shotguns- Charles Daly brand. Anybody know anything on these?

What about Armsport? Anybody have any of the poop on these guys?

I have a Rem 1148, is there anybody out there making stuff for it?

I'm open to suggestions here as I have to get this issue put to bed soon so I can practice with whatever I come down on and get back to 3 gunning.

[George]

Forget the Saiga, it will put you in Open at USPSA matches and it will probably not fly as a HeMe shotgun at most IMG matches either. If you can't afford a Benny, then the Remmy 1100/11-87 with some cosmetic problems is your best choice by far. Forget all the rest, a cheap auto-loader is no deal!

If you really want something cheap, then just get a new Winchester, or Remington pump. A pump action is the best all round choice for HM division if you want to be legal at all matches. Pump and Auto are starting to be recognized as separate in HM at some IMG matches (SMM3G), some allow pump only.

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Regards,

[stingerjg]

You should be able to get a well used 1100 from a pawn shop or gunbroker that would fit your bill. You may need to replace some internal parts to get it working properly. In my area ive seen 1100's go as low as $200.

[jm951]

I was looking at pumps originally, but the local matches make no distinction between pump and auto. For that matter, most are not 30cal neutral either, so I get hammered by the mouse guns. The local matches are usually broken down between irons and optics. So, in the interest of getting a bit more competitive at the local level, an auto is in order. I'm planning on doing SMM3G 06 and noticed that the Heavy Metal division does make a seperate class for the pumps and autos. IF I was going back pump, it would be either a Mossy 590 or a Rem 870.

My first choice would be a cosmetically impaired 1100 or 1187 and add what is needed to get to near 1100CM status. I was thinking Stoeger because of the Benelli type action, but if no extended mags will fit, then there's no real reason for it. Besides, while I can do machine work, I don't really want to make a comp bolt handle like is on the 1100CM. For the time and materials, it's cheaper to buy one. So, back to the Rem platform.

I like the Saiga idea quite a bit and haven't seen anything in the SMM3G rules that would rule it out.

If there were any goodies for the 1148, that would be the way to go since I currently have one in EXG condition that is dead reliable. Since I haven't found anything, it may wind up as trading material.

There are a couple of gun shows coming up in my area, so that might be another place to look. I've found that Murphy's Law of supply and demand is in operation, "If you don't need it, it's in large supply. If you need it, it's nowhere to be found." I missed a deal on a 1100 for $250 a couple of months back that would have met the need perfectly. Didn't need it at the time, so didn't buy it.

[George]

I like the Saiga idea quite a bit and haven't seen anything in the SMM3G rules that would rule it out.

The beauty of IMG rule usage is that they are a "suggested" set of rules and can be modified to suit. There is no mandate to use them exactly as they lay as in USPSA sanctioned matches.

I don't see any independent 3 gun match director worth his salt "ever" allowing a magazine fed shotgun to compete in a division that has competitors hand stuffing shotgun shells with intense pride in their ability to do that fast.

Good luck on the Saiga route if you choose to try it and "see" if it won't push you to Open.

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Regards,

[jm951]

I was thinking that the Saiga might get reclassed into Open, even though it's not specifically against the rules as written. Even though I like the idea, that's the main concern I have about it.

So before I drop coin on a Rem platform, I want to explore all the options from folks who are active in 3gun.

[George]

I want to explore all the options from folks who are active in 3gun

I am, and I am certain enough about you getting pushed to open that I will eat my shootin' hat if a major 3 gun match let's you shoot a Saiga in Tactical, Limited, or HeMe division.

I like the Remington 1100/11-87/CM platform and think the cheap blemished one is the way you ought to go for now. Save up for a Benelli if the Remington doesn't fit you in the long run.

Welcome to 3 gun.

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Regards,

[davidwiz]

I have a Beven-ized M1S90 that I love and wouldn't trade for the world. That being said, a Rem 1100/11-87 can be a very economical way to go.

As for your Saiga infatuation, why don't you contact Dan Furbee, the MD at the SMM3G and ask him what Division it will put you in.

[jm951]

Well, the way I got into 3 gun was through a friend who did spec ops in the Navy. He did warn me that it was like doing crack and the first hit would result in total addiction. He was spot on about that and now we've conspired to gain permission from our respective Social Directors to go west next year for some bigger matches. Since permission has now been secured, there's NO way I'm going to compete in larger matches with a questionable pump. I need to get a shotty soon and start getting it dialed in and set up how I want it. The funds issue is normal for this time of year in my field, the down side is I need the shotty now, not later in the year with a match looming 60 days out. I want to thrash it in a couple local matches first to get time to deal with the inevitable issues. In a way, I'm glad the issue came up now, not 6 months hence with travel arrangements made and entry fees paid.

The Remington is looking like the ticket. Saiga isn't quite an infatuation, I just like the idea of a mag fed auto shotty. There are conversions out there for Mossys and 870s to a 10 round drum that look enticing. Thumbing rounds with arthritis in the hands can be taxing, but I'll keep doing it for a couple more years yet.

[wsimpso1]

A used Rem M1100 for cheap is the way to go if coin is short. I got one with a 21" rifle sighted smoothbore barrel for $225, added a DMW feed ramp and 3" shell carrier, Williams Fire front sight, ghost ring rear sight, side saddle shell holder, and then did some careful de-horning of the loading path. I now have a competitive shotgun that shoots where it is pointed and is completely reliable. Including the CCW shell trays for the belt, I have less than $500 in it.

A used M870 is also a really good choice, and you can slick up both the operation and loading path to speed it up too. I have seen them for $175.

Some things to check on any used M1100:

Spin off the magazine cap, remove the barrel, and replace the cap. Slide the piston and seal back and look for signs of rust on the mag tube. Lube is good, crunchy with rust requires a deeper look. If the o ring is beat up, that is OK, just buy a pack of 20 from Eric W (on this forum)... A little rust on the tube where the gas cylinder sits can be wire brushed off, but if the rust is bad or it has deep pitting, skip the gun. Check that the long shell latch is firmly in place - this can be staked to be fixed, and is a routine fix. On the opposite wall of the reciever, check that the intercepter latch is present and OK. This is a pivoting latch with a hair spring. A boss and c-clip hold it in place, and it costs money to fix if the boss is messed up. Trigger assemblies are usually loaded with powder residue, a bit of gun scrubber and then oil will fix all of that.

Other threads on this forum cover fixes for all of this, improving the loading path, and fixing the intercepter latch. Pat Sweeney's book is recommended too.

Once you get started with the M1100, you might find that is all that you need.

Billski

[jm951]

Updated-

I just bought an 1100 from a friend at work for $250. He tells me that there haven't been 100 rounds through it and that it's been sitting for quite a while. I think that's true since the gun was bone dry, no wear marks of any kind inside the receiver, on the mag tube, on the gas system, or scratches on the loading gate. The O ring is questionable, but that was no surprise given the age of the gun. I put 50 rounds through it this weekend with no problems. First thing I'm going to deal with- the O ring with Eric's solution. Second, I'm going to take either this gun or the 1148 to the Ft. Benning match. What length mag tube goes with the tactical (22") barrel? 9 round? Suggestions?

From what I'm seeing, the 1100 and 1148 have a number of parts that are common, or at least so similar, they could be modified to work. A couple of features of the 1148- and I would like to know what the experts here think-

1) bolt release button on the side of the receiver

2) action is recoil ala Browning A5, no gas stuff to deal with

3) while the latch(?) for the 1100 on the loading gate should fit, I see no need for it as the release button is on the receiver side and shells could be loaded at any time.. It should be functionally similar to a Benelli, just maybe not as fast cycle and lock time.

The point I'm headed for is- one gun could be set up for tactical and the other left with the long barrel and magazine for matches where tactical rules aren't an issue. They weigh, feel and mount about the same. From a couple of feet, you couldn't tell the difference as they stand now. What say the experts?

[davidwiz]

In my Limited/Tactical M1S90, I can get 9 in the tube, so I would guess capacity is the same in the 1100. If your shooting SMM3G, max length (Limited/Tactical) on the bbl is 22" and max length on the mag tube is 23". For USPSA, can't have more than 9 rnds loaded.

[kdmoore]

The Saiga is very interesting. There is some info out there, but the gun is hard to find. A couple of Q's- does it come with choke tubes, how is the reliability, and what class would it be in?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like you are already on your way, and I think you took the right route. Saigas are between distributors, and as they are scarce they are getting a premium (but still can be found under 500). The real trick are the mags. 5 rounders will work and now go for ~50 ea. if you can find sellors. Figure you'll need to get 6-8 depending on the longest stages you see. 8 rounders are VERY difficult to come by, I know of none that were imported other than a few that came in with the 12c's (folding stock, pistol grip, LEO before the sunset of the ban). Folks find them from overseas. Seen them go for ~200 but mostly now go for 120-150. Again, you'd need a bunch to get thru the long stages. Around here, a long shotty stage is ~35-40 rounds, most are 20-30. I got a Saiga and mags when they were much more affordable, else I'm sure I'd just dress up a Remmy for the game.

Reliability is great, but not as 100% as I'd like.

The choked models have external threads. But most weren't choked. Better to get a plain bbl and have it threaded for the choke of your choice.

I don't like the sighting on them, and have struggled to get one that shoots to POA. Currently I've mounted a Kobra dot on mine but I'm looking for a FS to use with a rear leaf. Kobra gets in the way of my reloading.

The Remington is looking like the ticket. Saiga isn't quite an infatuation, I just like the idea of a mag fed auto shotty. There are conversions out there for Mossys and 870s to a 10 round drum that look enticing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The very thing that I've heard used to justify moving Saigas from semi to open is the mag fed capability. Basically Mag = speedloader. So it's probably good that you refrained from the knoxx conversions. Plus they are expensive (relatively, compared to the shotty, but hey, I've got a lot more in my Saiga mags than my Saiga shotty too). Guess you could look into removing the knoxx (from mossberg only, I hear the 870 requires drilling out a weld or something.). Mags have got to be tough to carry, probably need to find some sort of carrier. They have stick mags too. Big advantage would be the button drop, straight insertion of mags vs the AK mag rock required of the Saiga. knoxx also makes some shock absorber stocks that look interesting.

Incidently, there are some who are trying to find a reliable conversion of the knoxx drum plus Saiga feed lips, but nothing yet.

I know you've made your choice, just wanted to post out this info and to say I think you did the right thing!

Good luck with it. Anything else this addictive is already illegal.

[George]

Just a quick note on Saiga mags. Most folks I know with them (2!) are using a pair of 5's, or an 8 and a 5 plasti-welded together. Not too many folk get their hands on the tens. It's a useless platform without 10's in open. No matter how many 5's and 8's you have, it's disadvantages are a real bummer unless you gain the big stick advantage in open with this platform. If you can cleanly snap in 10 at a time and if the bugger doesn't choke on you, a Saiga can dominate an all shot field course. In other situations it's a real loser, so you have to make up the ground with capacity where you can.

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Regards