Couple questions about land and trimming to length .223

[chopps]

Ok,

I have been trimming my brass but hard to get exactly 1.750 I seem to get 1.752 ( on 1 time shot brass afer sizing and trimming ) alot and "assume" that will be fine if most here agree ?

Also I get some that are 1.748 to 1.750 ( without trimming after being shot ) and again "assume" its fine to load as is, is that right or toss them away like the ones at 1.745 and lower ? Now If I keep them & load them check them after being shot twice and trim if needed of corse which will be a pain in the rump of corse LOL

2nd question

Alot of people ( hunters mostly ) have told me to get the bullet close as I can to the land (I thinks its spelled ) and measured mine and its 2.286 total length of bullet right as it stops in barrel so, question is when I am loading my .223 it says COAL 2.235 which is about .50 thousands short is that something I should try to fix by increasing the COAL and increasing powder by maybe a 10th of a grain per .10 thousands or am I trying to split hairs and wasting my time ?

Measured my land by leaving a bullet way out of the brass and cycling it a few times to see where the length was in the end.

Thanks for all the help in th eprior post about powder loads to group.

Edited September 19, 2014 by chopps

[johnsons1480]

Without measuring your chamber, I don't know definitively, but I could almost guarantee you 1.752" is fine. How are you trimming? That's fairly inconsistent.

What kind of gun are you shooting? That will dictate what kind of jump you can have and/or want. If you're shooting a bolt rifle, then you may be able to get away with it. If you're shooting an AR, you will not likely be able to get anywhere near the lands before hitting max magazine length.

That is NOT how you measure the lands. Buy one of each of these items:

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-OAL-Gauge-Curved-1-Each/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-223-Rem-Modified-Case-1-Each/

[chopps]

I am using the wft trimmer on a drill. Its pretty close when it trims i just gave up on exactly 1.750 and settled with 1.752 because i could not hit it just right always more above or below and just settled.

The big varience is on one shot brass after its been sized not trimmed yet.

A remmy .223 bolt gun.

Is really something to try to achieve or just move on and do what sierra or hogdgon says in the reload data ?

Without measuring your chamber, I don't know definitively, but I could almost guarantee you 1.752" is fine. How are you trimming? That's fairly inconsistent.

What kind of gun are you shooting? That will dictate what kind of jump you can have and/or want. If you're shooting a bolt rifle, then you may be able to get away with it. If you're shooting an AR, you will not likely be able to get anywhere near the lands before hitting max magazine length.

That is NOT how you measure the lands. Buy one of each of these items:

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-OAL-Gauge-Curved-1-Each/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-223-Rem-Modified-Case-1-Each/

Edited September 19, 2014 by chopps

[johnsons1480]

It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I go through some pretty rigorous load development for my bolt rifles. It pays off in the end, but how much gain for the additional development is the question. I have the time, so it's worth it to me. What are you trying to accomplish here? If you answer those questions, I can help you develop a plan.

To answer a question I skipped earlier, I would toss any brass shorter than 1.730" for a bolt gun. That's based on a SAMMI drawing I found here. http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/223%20Remington.pdf At some point, if you trim too much, you have insufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in the case. If you trimmed it a little too short, it will grow, so eventually the short brass will be long enough to make uniform.

[chopps]

It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Re: Pretty accurate gun for the range not perfection but acceptable.

I go through some pretty rigorous load development for my bolt rifles. It pays off in the end, but how much gain for the additional development is the question.

Re: i shoot paper at 100 yards and below and steel at 300 thats all my range offers.

I have the time, so it's worth it to me. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Re: Some good skills so i can build on them when i go to range is about it.

I have a sierra load manual and going to use there load data to start with because they tested with 1/8 twist , same length barrel as i have and varget which is what i am using.

Figured it was a good point to start with so far.

If you answer those questions, I can help you develop a plan.

Edited September 19, 2014 by chopps

[johnsons1480]

Ok, here's what I would do.

Brass Prep:

Deprime

Tumble

FL Resize

Tumble lube off

Trim

Chamfer

Debur

Make one dummy round (no powder/primer) to the OAL stated in the load manual. Put the dummy round in the magazine. Push it down, make sure it isn't too long for the magazine. Chamber that dummy round. Make sure it chambers easily, and there are no marks on the bullet. If that's the case, move forward

My load development process:

1. OAL testing. Skip this for your purposes
2. Pressure testing
3. Progressive ladder testing. Skip this unless you can put paper up at 300 yards.
4. Group shooting

For your purposes (100 yards paper, 300 steel), I would make two range trips. The first would be to run the full spectrum of powder charges for your chosen load to test for pressure with your components. For Varget in a bolt action rifle (Sierra manual) the range of powder charges is 19.9-26.4 grains. I like to go in 1% of max incriments for the pressure test. So in this case, 1% of 26.4 is .264, rounded to 0.3 grain increments.

Load one each of the following charges of Varget at the OAL recommended in the book.

19.9, 22.2, 22.5, 22.8, 23.1, 23.4, 23.7, 24.0, 24.3, 24.6, 24.9, 25.2, 25.4, 25.7, 26.0, 26.3

Shoot from low to high. I would tell you how to look for an accuracy node, but that won't be clear at 100 yards. Try to work on your accuracy while taking these shots. Don't just blast it away. Look for pressure signs while shooting from low to high. http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html If you don't know what to look for, that's a good article. If you see any signs of pressure, stop. Bump down 1/2 of a grain, and call that your max. If there are no pressure signs, move on to the next step.

The second range trip will be to shoot for accuracy. Take your max load established in the last step, and reduce that by 10%. In the example above, you would have 26.3-2.63=~23.7. Now, in .2 grain increments, load 5 each of the following charge weights.

23.7, 23.9, 24.1, 24.3, 24.5, 24.7, 24.9, 25.1, 25.3, 25.5, 25.7, 25.9, 26.1, 26.3

Shoot those for groups, and see what groups the best. Now you have a load that should perform well at 100 yards.

[ToddKS]

What bullet, primer, and brass are you planning to load?

[chopps]

What bullet, primer, and brass are you planning to load?

69 gr sierra matchking, cci small rifle primers, once shot black hills ammo by me and varget powder.

[ToddKS]

There is nothing wrong with what has been said by others, but I might offer a simplified approach.

On the topic of trimming, I would not worry about 1.748 vs 1.752. Anywhere in that tolerance band will be more than fine for your purposes. There will be some variance in the OAL of brass trimmed with the WFT as there is sometimes slight variance in the shoulder of the case due to springback. The WFT spaces off the shoulder thus the tendency for slight variance is observed OAL. I use a WFT to trim my .223 brass. Also, trimming is not necessary every time. I set my calipers at 1.760 and use them as a go/no go gauge and only trim those over 1.760. Saves a lot of work. I did some testing and could not determine any real difference in accuracy between cases that were all trimmed and cases that were mixed between 1.750 and 1.760. If I were shooting bench rest that would be a different deal but that is not what we are talking about.

As to working up a load, here is how I would approach it:

1. I do not worry about finding max pressure. If I see signs of pressure I acknowledge that but I am not specifically trying to find that data point. I am trying to find the most accurate load and in my experience that is usually not at max pressure.

2. OAL: Based on the method you used to establish the 2.286 you are likely "jammed" at that length. Based on what my bench rest friends tell me you are likely +.020. I would load my test loads at 2.250 based on the data you supplied. Remington barrels are known for having long throats and the factory barrels I have dealt with tolerate jump pretty well. I would not worry about trying to get the bullet on the lands. Some guns shoot great that way but most factory barrels I have dealt with shoot best with between .010 and .025 of jump. My friends 308 shoots .045 jump.

3. I would load the following test set all at OAL 2.250 with your CCI primers etc.

10 rounds @ 23.5 gr (5 rounds for sighting in, five for test)

5 rounds @ 24.0gr

5 rounds @ 24.5gr

5 rounds @ 25.0gr

5 rounds @ 25.5gr

4. Test at 100 yards: If possible shoot all groups on one large piece of paper with the points of aim laid out on a grid. The grid is to help you observe vertical and horizontal changes in the overall position of the group.

Use the first five rounds to sight in the rifle. Once the scope is set, do not make any further adjustments during the test. The purpose is to see how the group size shrinks and grows and also see if the group moves (which it probably will).

If you see pressure signs, stop. You just acquired free data as I mentioned in point 1. You may have to disassemble some rounds but that is better than the alternative.

Once you are done, see which load appears to be grouping the best and fine tune from there. Personal experience and research tells me that somewhere in there is a likely winner. When fine tuning remember to only change one variable at a time (do not change both powder charge and OAL).

For accuracy work I would recommend some Remington 7 1/2 primers instead of the CCI. I have had far better luck with the Remington primers in this regard. My experience is that the CCI primers will show pressure at lower charge weights than the Remington.

Again, this is my approach. You have to decide for yourself what you think the best path forward will be.

Good luck. Let us know how your results turn out.

[Mike Morcillo]

Your OAL is limited by the magazine. Stick with recommended OAL for the AR, but work up loads on a bolt action rifle based on different OAL. You'll need at least .003 from the lands or you'll suffer significant pressure spikes when the powder ignites.