Virginia Count Stage Penalties

[Shadowrider]

Here's another Melody Line snafu that I witnessed recently.

Shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at what I assume are T2-T6 (I say assume because he had 2 mikes on the targets).

What's the correct call? I'm seeing a procedural for stacking shots on T1 prior to reload and another procedural for FTE one of the targets because he only fired 5 rounds after the mandatory reload. Or is there another penalty for an extra shot prior to the reload? (double jeopardy in play?) I would score the targets as shot.

This was at a club match and I honestly think the RO just missed catching it. No procedurals were assessed and with several deltas and two mikes, the shooter wasn't going to be bragging anyway.

[Skydiver]

Looks to me to simply 2 procedurals: one for stacking, and another for failure to follow the stage procedure.

[Nik Habicht]

Looks to me to simply 2 procedurals: one for stacking, and another for failure to follow the stage procedure.

And you'd be doing it wrong......

It's one procedural under 9.4.5.3 for stacking on T1. We don't penalize the same action twice......

Then score the targets.....

[Skydiver]

So it's a failure to follow the procedure if you don't fire enough shots before the reload, but it's not a failure to follow the procedure if you don't fire enough shots after the reload?

Edited September 17, 2014 by Skydiver

[teros135]

Here's another Melody Line snafu that I witnessed recently.

Shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at what I assume are T2-T6 (I say assume because he had 2 mikes on the targets).

What's the correct call? I'm seeing a procedural for stacking shots on T1 prior to reload and another procedural for FTE one of the targets because he only fired 5 rounds after the mandatory reload. Or is there another penalty for an extra shot prior to the reload? (double jeopardy in play?) I would score the targets as shot.

This was at a club match and I honestly think the RO just missed catching it. No procedurals were assessed and with several deltas and two mikes, the shooter wasn't going to be bragging anyway.

I'm thinking a penalty for stacking on T1. if there are hits on all the targets, there can't be a FTE/FTS because all the targets were obviously shot at. Score the targets as shot.

It doesn't matter how much the shooter was "hurt" by his/her mistake(s); we should go by the rules, as best we can understand them.

[teros135]

So it's a failure to follow the procedure if you don't fire enough shots before the reload, but it's not a failure to follow the procedure if you don't fire enough shots after the reload?

Well, he's been penalized for stacking. Penalizing for doing the reload at the "wrong" time sounds like stacking penalities, and we're not supposed to do that. And, actually, he reloaded after the 6th target, which is what the WSB says to do.

[professor]

There have been a lot of discussions about "intent", most of which end up saying it doesn't matter what the "intent" of the shooter or stage designer was (because we can't know that) - what matters is what they did. The shooter did engage T1-T5, didn't engage T6, then performed a reload and engaged T1-T6, then added a second shot at T6. His overall attempt seems to satisfy the WSB; however, he did neglect to engage T6 on the first pass (shooting it was required by the WSB) and he did fire two shots at T6 on the second pass (extra shot).

So, looking at what he did do, I'd still recommend a procedural for not following the WSB by not shooting at T6 on the first pass, a procedural for the extra shot at T6 on the second pass, and a procedural for a second hit on T6 (if there was one). Both hits on T6 (if present) would be scored; the "hit' procedural makes it irrelevant which round was the extra hit.

Isn't this fun?!

I'm going to agree with teros, and support that interpretation with how a slightly different stage would have been scored. Suppose the stage been set up as two strings: String 1 - Engage T1-T6 with one round each. String 2 - Engage T1-T6 with one round each. Virginia count, etc.

In this case, String 1 terminates when the first engagement of the array is completed, which also occurs when the shooter stops shooting at the targets in the array. String 2 commences with engaging the array a second time, and concludes when the shooter stops shooting at the targets in the array.

During String 1, the shooter has a gun malfunction that causes him to stop after firing the 5th shot, leaving one target. During String 2, the shooter engages T1-T6 with one shot each, and takes an additional shot at T6.

I believe that this stage would be scored as 1 procedural during String 1 for failure to engage all 6 targets. Then there would be one procedural for the extra shot during String 2. Targets would be scored as hit, with likely no extra hits, as no targets would have more than two hits, including the T6 target.

In the actual stage, performing the reload constituted the end of the first engagement of the array, and allowed the beginning of the second engagement of the array. Due to T6 not being engaged before the re-engagement of the array, the shooter was penalized one procedural. And due to shooting 7 shots after the reload, he is penalized for an extra shot procedural.

After the malfunction, the shooter could have shot just T6, then reloaded a second time and completed shooting 6 targets, thereby eliminating the procedural for skipping T6 before reengaging the array.

Just my take on the situation. Fire away.

[Shadowrider]

Here's another Melody Line snafu that I witnessed recently.

Shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at what I assume are T2-T6 (I say assume because he had 2 mikes on the targets).

What's the correct call? I'm seeing a procedural for stacking shots on T1 prior to reload and another procedural for FTE one of the targets because he only fired 5 rounds after the mandatory reload. Or is there another penalty for an extra shot prior to the reload? (double jeopardy in play?) I would score the targets as shot.

This was at a club match and I honestly think the RO just missed catching it. No procedurals were assessed and with several deltas and two mikes, the shooter wasn't going to be bragging anyway.

I'm thinking a penalty for stacking on T1. if there are hits on all the targets, there can't be a FTE/FTS because all the targets were obviously shot at. Score the targets as shot.

It doesn't matter how much the shooter was "hurt" by his/her mistake(s); we should go by the rules, as best we can understand them.

Understood and agreed.

So it's a failure to follow the procedure if you don't fire enough shots before the reload, but it's not a failure to follow the procedure if you don't fire enough shots after the reload?

Well, he's been penalized for stacking. Penalizing for doing the reload at the "wrong" time sounds like stacking penalities, and we're not supposed to do that. And, actually, he reloaded after the 6th target, which is what the WSB says to do.

Is it because there were no extra shots fired for the stage? I suppose I can see that.

Edit to add: Upon further thought I think you are correct now. Shooter did engage all 6 targets on his 1st pass and performed his mandatory reload after the 6th correctly. So it does make sense to only assess 1 penalty since the FTE on the 2nd pass was penalized in the 1st pass.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Shadowrider

[austex]

It's one procedural under 9.4.5.3 for stacking on T1.

Agree that it's one procedural, but under 10.2.2 not 9.4.5.3. Melody Line is one string, so 9.4.5.3 doens't apply to this situation.

[MaraW]

9.4.5.3 doesn't say there has to be more than one string. It says ANY string. This classifier is one string. Stacking penalties can be applied to any virginia count stage.

[austex]

9.4.5.3 doesn't say there has to be more than one string. It says ANY string. This classifier is one string. Stacking penalties can be applied to any virginia count stage.

Shadowrider’s Melody Line example is that the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round each at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at T2-T6. Are you saying that you would impose one stacked-shot procedural for not shooting at T1 after the reload?

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Melody Line is one string, and Shadowrider’s hypothetical assumes the shooter fired 2 shots at each target. No target was insufficiently engaged in that single string.

A couple of hypothetical examples might illustrate the point better.

Example 1: Virginia count, 2 targets, 2 strings, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is for string 1, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, and for string 2, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. In string 1, shooter draws and shots T1 with 2 rounds and stops. In string 2, shooter draws and shoots T2 with 2 rounds and stops. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. Then 9.4.5.3 kicks in and the shooter gets a procedural for insufficient engagement of T2 in the first string, and a procedural for insufficient engagement of T1 in the second string.

Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. Shooter draws, engages T1 with 2 rounds, performs a reload, and engages T2 with 2 rounds. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. It’s only one string, so the shooter did not shoot more than the required rounds on any target in that string or shoot any target with fewer shots than specified in that string. No stacked shot penalties apply. (This example is intended to reignite the debate about scoring the reload mistiming issue, just to show that stacked shot penalties don’t apply).

I was careful not to say that stacked shot penalties can’t apply to a single string—I only said that 9.4.5.3 doesn’t apply to Shadowrider’s Melody Line example. I haven’t tried to consider all possible instances where a stacked shot penalty might apply in a single string, and I don’t have time to try right now. My intuition, however, is that there may not be any examples to find. Generally, miss and failure to shoot at penalties will apply to any target insufficiently engaged in that single string. So I’d be interested to see any valid example you may find.

[MaraW]

9.4.5.3 doesn't say there has to be more than one string. It says ANY string. This classifier is one string. Stacking penalties can be applied to any virginia count stage.

Shadowrider’s Melody Line example is that the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round each at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at T2-T6. Are you saying that you would impose one stacked-shot procedural for not shooting at T1 after the reload?

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Melody Line is one string, and Shadowrider’s hypothetical assumes the shooter fired 2 shots at each target. No target was insufficiently engaged in that single string.

A couple of hypothetical examples might illustrate the point better.

Example 1: Virginia count, 2 targets, 2 strings, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is for string 1, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, and for string 2, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. In string 1, shooter draws and shots T1 with 2 rounds and stops. In string 2, shooter draws and shoots T2 with 2 rounds and stops. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. Then 9.4.5.3 kicks in and the shooter gets a procedural for insufficient engagement of T2 in the first string, and a procedural for insufficient engagement of T1 in the second string.

Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. Shooter draws, engages T1 with 2 rounds, performs a reload, and engages T2 with 2 rounds. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. It’s only one string, so the shooter did not shoot more than the required rounds on any target in that string or shoot any target with fewer shots than specified in that string. No stacked shot penalties apply. (This example is intended to reignite the debate about scoring the reload mistiming issue, just to show that stacked shot penalties don’t apply).

I was careful not to say that stacked shot penalties can’t apply to a single string—I only said that 9.4.5.3 doesn’t apply to Shadowrider’s Melody Line example. I haven’t tried to consider all possible instances where a stacked shot penalty might apply in a single string, and I don’t have time to try right now. My intuition, however, is that there may not be any examples to find. Generally, miss and failure to shoot at penalties will apply to any target insufficiently engaged in that single string. So I’d be interested to see any valid example you may find.

I wasn't necessarily talking in specifics. I thought you were saying that stacking procedurals couldn't be given if there was *only* one string. Stacking on this stage would be if the shooter fires two rounds each at the first three targets, reloaded then fired two each at the last three targets. Another example is if he shot two at the first one, one on T2-T5 (6 rounds so far), doesn't fire at T6, then reloads 2 on T6, one on T2-T5 again and doesn't shoot T1. He has fired no extra shots, has no extra hits (but has avoided 2 transitions). If the stage says engage each target with one round each, reload and engage each with one round, then when he didn't shoot at T6 and fired 2 at T1, this is where the "fewer than required on one target and more than required on the other" comes into play. Stacking is assessed per target, so in this example it would be 2 procedurals. In Shadowriders example, I think it would be one procedural for stacking due to the 2 shots fired on one target before the reload and not shooting at that target after the reload, all the other targets were engaged with the specified number of rounds. (If I'm reading what he said correctly)

[racerba]

9.4.5.3 doesn't say there has to be more than one string. It says ANY string. This classifier is one string. Stacking penalties can be applied to any virginia count stage.

Shadowrider’s Melody Line example is that the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round each at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at T2-T6. Are you saying that you would impose one stacked-shot procedural for not shooting at T1 after the reload?

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Melody Line is one string, and Shadowrider’s hypothetical assumes the shooter fired 2 shots at each target. No target was insufficiently engaged in that single string.

A couple of hypothetical examples might illustrate the point better.

Example 1: Virginia count, 2 targets, 2 strings, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is for string 1, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, and for string 2, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. In string 1, shooter draws and shots T1 with 2 rounds and stops. In string 2, shooter draws and shoots T2 with 2 rounds and stops. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. Then 9.4.5.3 kicks in and the shooter gets a procedural for insufficient engagement of T2 in the first string, and a procedural for insufficient engagement of T1 in the second string.

Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. Shooter draws, engages T1 with 2 rounds, performs a reload, and engages T2 with 2 rounds. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. It’s only one string, so the shooter did not shoot more than the required rounds on any target in that string or shoot any target with fewer shots than specified in that string. No stacked shot penalties apply. (This example is intended to reignite the debate about scoring the reload mistiming issue, just to show that stacked shot penalties don’t apply).

I was careful not to say that stacked shot penalties can’t apply to a single string—I only said that 9.4.5.3 doesn’t apply to Shadowrider’s Melody Line example. I haven’t tried to consider all possible instances where a stacked shot penalty might apply in a single string, and I don’t have time to try right now. My intuition, however, is that there may not be any examples to find. Generally, miss and failure to shoot at penalties will apply to any target insufficiently engaged in that single string. So I’d be interested to see any valid example you may find.

I wasn't necessarily talking in specifics. I thought you were saying that stacking procedurals couldn't be given if there was *only* one string. Stacking on this stage would be if the shooter fires two rounds each at the first three targets, reloaded then fired two each at the last three targets. Another example is if he shot two at the first one, one on T2-T5 (6 rounds so far), doesn't fire at T6, then reloads 2 on T6, one on T2-T5 again and doesn't shoot T1. He has fired no extra shots, has no extra hits (but has avoided 2 transitions). If the stage says engage each target with one round each, reload and engage each with one round, then when he didn't shoot at T6 and fired 2 at T1, this is where the "fewer than required on one target and more than required on the other" comes into play. Stacking is assessed per target, so in this example it would be 2 procedurals. In Shadowriders example, I think it would be one procedural for stacking due to the 2 shots fired on one target before the reload and not shooting at that target after the reload, all the other targets were engaged with the specified number of rounds. (If I'm reading what he said correctly)

I have to agree with austex but add that 9.4.5.3 cannot apply to CoF with only one string. The rule states:

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Shooting prior to a reload does not constitute a string...and shooting after a reload is not a different string. The only penalty that can be applied is procedure penalty - 10.1.1.

Hypothetical: I'll use austex example 2 (Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each.)

Shooter draws fires 2 shots reloads and fires 2 shots. As the RO, how do you KNOW the shooter "stacked" his shots??? The shooter may be that bad and his second shot missed the other target and hits the same target he shot during the first shot...resulting in 2 hits on each target. What you don't know, you cannot assess a penalty for. You cannot assumed the shooter did something you are not sure about.

Edited September 18, 2014 by racerba

[MaraW]

9.4.5.3 doesn't say there has to be more than one string. It says ANY string. This classifier is one string. Stacking penalties can be applied to any virginia count stage.

Shadowrider’s Melody Line example is that the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round each at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at T2-T6. Are you saying that you would impose one stacked-shot procedural for not shooting at T1 after the reload?

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Melody Line is one string, and Shadowrider’s hypothetical assumes the shooter fired 2 shots at each target. No target was insufficiently engaged in that single string.

A couple of hypothetical examples might illustrate the point better.

Example 1: Virginia count, 2 targets, 2 strings, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is for string 1, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, and for string 2, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. In string 1, shooter draws and shots T1 with 2 rounds and stops. In string 2, shooter draws and shoots T2 with 2 rounds and stops. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. Then 9.4.5.3 kicks in and the shooter gets a procedural for insufficient engagement of T2 in the first string, and a procedural for insufficient engagement of T1 in the second string.

Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. Shooter draws, engages T1 with 2 rounds, performs a reload, and engages T2 with 2 rounds. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. It’s only one string, so the shooter did not shoot more than the required rounds on any target in that string or shoot any target with fewer shots than specified in that string. No stacked shot penalties apply. (This example is intended to reignite the debate about scoring the reload mistiming issue, just to show that stacked shot penalties don’t apply).

I was careful not to say that stacked shot penalties can’t apply to a single string—I only said that 9.4.5.3 doesn’t apply to Shadowrider’s Melody Line example. I haven’t tried to consider all possible instances where a stacked shot penalty might apply in a single string, and I don’t have time to try right now. My intuition, however, is that there may not be any examples to find. Generally, miss and failure to shoot at penalties will apply to any target insufficiently engaged in that single string. So I’d be interested to see any valid example you may find.

I wasn't necessarily talking in specifics. I thought you were saying that stacking procedurals couldn't be given if there was *only* one string. Stacking on this stage would be if the shooter fires two rounds each at the first three targets, reloaded then fired two each at the last three targets. Another example is if he shot two at the first one, one on T2-T5 (6 rounds so far), doesn't fire at T6, then reloads 2 on T6, one on T2-T5 again and doesn't shoot T1. He has fired no extra shots, has no extra hits (but has avoided 2 transitions). If the stage says engage each target with one round each, reload and engage each with one round, then when he didn't shoot at T6 and fired 2 at T1, this is where the "fewer than required on one target and more than required on the other" comes into play. Stacking is assessed per target, so in this example it would be 2 procedurals. In Shadowriders example, I think it would be one procedural for stacking due to the 2 shots fired on one target before the reload and not shooting at that target after the reload, all the other targets were engaged with the specified number of rounds. (If I'm reading what he said correctly)

I have to agree with austex but add that 9.4.5.3 cannot apply to CoF with on one string.

Hypothetical: I'll use austex example 2 (Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each.)

Shooter draws fires 2 shots reloads and fires 2 shots. As the RO, how do you KNOW the shooter "stacked" his shots??? The shooter may be that bad and his second shot missed the other target and hits the same target he shot during the first shot...resulting in 2 hits on each target. What you don't know, you cannot assess a penalty for. You cannot assumed the shooter did something you are not sure about.[/

The way you tell is the same way you know someone didn't engage a target in an array on a normal course of fire. You can watch the shooter transition from one target to the next. 2 shots with no transition, a reload and two more shots with no transition should be fairly obvious. You don't need to be watching the targets to see what he is shooting at (or not)

[MaraW]

9.4.5.3 doesn't say there has to be more than one string. It says ANY string. This classifier is one string. Stacking penalties can be applied to any virginia count stage.

Shadowriders Melody Line example is that the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds at T1 then fires 1 round each at T2-T6, performs the mandatory reload and fires 1 round at T2-T6. Are you saying that you would impose one stacked-shot procedural for not shooting at T1 after the reload?

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Melody Line is one string, and Shadowriders hypothetical assumes the shooter fired 2 shots at each target. No target was insufficiently engaged in that single string.

A couple of hypothetical examples might illustrate the point better.

Example 1: Virginia count, 2 targets, 2 strings, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is for string 1, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, and for string 2, draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. In string 1, shooter draws and shots T1 with 2 rounds and stops. In string 2, shooter draws and shoots T2 with 2 rounds and stops. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. Then 9.4.5.3 kicks in and the shooter gets a procedural for insufficient engagement of T2 in the first string, and a procedural for insufficient engagement of T1 in the second string.

Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each. Shooter draws, engages T1 with 2 rounds, performs a reload, and engages T2 with 2 rounds. Targets are scored, each has 2 hits. Its only one string, so the shooter did not shoot more than the required rounds on any target in that string or shoot any target with fewer shots than specified in that string. No stacked shot penalties apply. (This example is intended to reignite the debate about scoring the reload mistiming issue, just to show that stacked shot penalties dont apply).

I was careful not to say that stacked shot penalties cant apply to a single stringI only said that 9.4.5.3 doesnt apply to Shadowriders Melody Line example. I havent tried to consider all possible instances where a stacked shot penalty might apply in a single string, and I dont have time to try right now. My intuition, however, is that there may not be any examples to find. Generally, miss and failure to shoot at penalties will apply to any target insufficiently engaged in that single string. So Id be interested to see any valid example you may find.

I wasn't necessarily talking in specifics. I thought you were saying that stacking procedurals couldn't be given if there was *only* one string. Stacking on this stage would be if the shooter fires two rounds each at the first three targets, reloaded then fired two each at the last three targets. Another example is if he shot two at the first one, one on T2-T5 (6 rounds so far), doesn't fire at T6, then reloads 2 on T6, one on T2-T5 again and doesn't shoot T1. He has fired no extra shots, has no extra hits (but has avoided 2 transitions). If the stage says engage each target with one round each, reload and engage each with one round, then when he didn't shoot at T6 and fired 2 at T1, this is where the "fewer than required on one target and more than required on the other" comes into play. Stacking is assessed per target, so in this example it would be 2 procedurals. In Shadowriders example, I think it would be one procedural for stacking due to the 2 shots fired on one target before the reload and not shooting at that target after the reload, all the other targets were engaged with the specified number of rounds. (If I'm reading what he said correctly)

I have to agree with austex but add that 9.4.5.3 cannot apply to CoF with on one string.

Hypothetical: I'll use austex example 2 (Example 2: Virginia count, 2 targets, 1 string, best 2 hits per target score. WSB is draw and engage T1 and T2 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and engage T1 and T2 with one round each.)

Shooter draws fires 2 shots reloads and fires 2 shots. As the RO, how do you KNOW the shooter "stacked" his shots??? The shooter may be that bad and his second shot missed the other target and hits the same target he shot during the first shot...resulting in 2 hits on each target. What you don't know, you cannot assess a penalty for. You cannot assumed the shooter did something you are not sure about.[/

The way you tell is the same way you know someone didn't engage a target in an array on a normal course of fire. You can watch the shooter transition from one target to the next. 2 shots with no transition, a reload and two more shots with no transition should be fairly obvious. You don't need to be watching the targets to see what he is shooting at (or not)

*sorry, the quote function hates me sometimes...

Edited September 18, 2014 by MaraW

[racerba]

The way you tell is the same way you know someone didn't engage a target in an array on a normal course of fire. You can watch the shooter transition from one target to the next. 2 shots with no transition, a reload and two more shots with no transition should be fairly obvious. You don't need to be watching the targets to see what he is shooting at (or not)

And if the targets are close to each other???

[racerba]

I was adding this to my previous post while you were replying:

The rule states:

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Shooting prior to a reload does not constitute a string...and shooting after a reload is not a different string. The only penalty that can be applied is procedure penalty - 10.1.1.

[MaraW]

I haven't yet RO'd one where they were so close I couldn't see a transition from one to the other. It helps to watch from just to the side and a bit behind the right shoulder (or left for a lefty). Like with any call though, if you're not 100% sure! don't make it.

[MaraW]

I was adding this to my previous post while you were replying:

The rule states:

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Shooting prior to a reload does not constitute a string...and shooting after a reload is not a different string. The only penalty that can be applied is procedure penalty - 10.1.1.

It says in *any* string. That doesn't mean those actions have to happen in separate strings. If the string specifies one shot per, reload, then one shot per shooting more than one at a time, and fewer on the other(s) at some point in that string is exactly what stacking is. If you shoot more than specified number on one and the *correct* number on the others, then you will have extra shot penalties (and maybe extra hits).

Otherwise why not shoot 2 on half, reload and shoot 2 on the other half. You would have still reloaded after 6 shots, so you can't give procedurals for not following the stage description, but you would have saved a total of 6 transitions between targets. This is why stacking can also only be applied to Virginia Count and Fixed time stages

Edited September 18, 2014 by MaraW

[Shadowrider]

(If I'm reading what he said correctly)

Yep. You read it correctly.

[racerba]

I was adding this to my previous post while you were replying:

The rule states:

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Shooting prior to a reload does not constitute a string...and shooting after a reload is not a different string. The only penalty that can be applied is procedure penalty - 10.1.1.

It says in *any* string. That doesn't mean those actions have to happen in separate strings. If the string specifies one shot per, reload, then one shot per shooting more than one at a time, and fewer on the other(s) at some point in that string is exactly what stacking is. If you shoot more than specified number on one and the *correct* number on the others, then you will have extra shot penalties (and maybe extra hits).

Otherwise why not shoot 2 on half, reload and shoot 2 on the other half. You would have still reloaded after 6 shots, so you can't give procedurals for not following the stage description, but you would have saved a total of 6 transitions between targets. This is why stacking can also only be applied to Virginia Count and Fixed time stages

But you are not shooting less or more on any target in that one string...shots prior to a reload and after does not constitute as two different strings...it's just a procedural penalty...which will negate any advantage gained by "stacking"...the procedural is for not shooting at each of the target...before and after the reload - 2 penalties...add up the scores and the 2 penalties will negates the advantage in time...

Edited September 18, 2014 by racerba

[MaraW]

I was adding this to my previous post while you were replying:

The rule states:9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.

Shooting prior to a reload does not constitute a string...and shooting after a reload is not a different string. The only penalty that can be applied is procedure penalty - 10.1.1.

It says in *any* string. That doesn't mean those actions have to happen in separate strings. If the string specifies one shot per, reload, then one shot per shooting more than one at a time, and fewer on the other(s) at some point in that string is exactly what stacking is. If you shoot more than specified number on one and the *correct* number on the others, then you will have extra shot penalties (and maybe extra hits).

Otherwise why not shoot 2 on half, reload and shoot 2 on the other half. You would have still reloaded after 6 shots, so you can't give procedurals for not following the stage description, but you would have saved a total of 6 transitions between targets. This is why stacking can also only be applied to Virginia Count and Fixed time stages

But you are not shooting less or more on any target in that one string...shots prior to a reload and after does not constitute as two different strings...it's just a procedural penalty...which will negate any advantage gained by "stacking"...the procedural is for not shooting at each of the target...before and after the reload - 2 penalties...add up the scores and the 2 penalties will negates the advantage in time...

I can see what you're saying, but I read "in any string" as during any string. Procedurals either way, but you still have to know what to call them on the scoresheet or you open the door for an arb