Activator Targets - Engaging

[Vince Pinto]

Many times at the club matches we use drop turners that may be set out in the open on the stage without hard cover. This is done for ease of construction and for minimal setup time. It is possible, in some instances, to have a view of these appearing targets prior to the activators being engaged. We also need to be able to state in the course description that this type of target cannot be engaged prior to the activator. In other words, we need to do it with words, not physical barrier.

You're covered - see Rule 1.1.5.1, which allows you to dictate many things in writing which you cannot state at higher level matches, where the usual "when visible" rules apply.

[Vince Pinto]

If the WSB does not say to activate first and I shoot the swinger first then hit the activator then I'm o.k.?

Yes Sir. And the rule does indeed assume good course design but, even if the COF was not built correctly, the competitor can still shoot targets on a "when visible" basis (unless it's a low level club match, where the WSB could dictate the shooting sequence).

[Jim Norman]

9.9.3 Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which initiates the target movement.

In other words, Rule 9.9.3 is an exception to the previous rule, and it states that although disappearing targets are normally exempt from FTSA penalties and misses, if you don't activate the activator, you will still get an FTSA penalty and misses on the disappearing targets if you don't actually shoot at and/or hit them, as the case may be.

Of course if you actually place hits on the disappearing targets, they are scored normally, but you would incur an FTSE penalty and a miss for the activator if it's a plate or popper (or possibly a procedural if the activator is a lever or similar device).

And where does this rule state the exception? It is not numbered as a sub-rule, ie., 9.9.2.1, it is numbered as a seperate rule within section 9. That is it is 9.9.3. When numbered this way it is meant to stand alone.

All this having been said. I'd like to give you your hits, but...

The rules say you get the penalties, but I think that the writers problably intended that you only get the penalties IF you failed to activate the target and since you would not / should not be able to see the targets prior to activation, then you were dinged.

As the rule is written however, even though you have shot at and hit the targets, the rule 9.9.3 says very clearly that you are penalized for FTSA and misses unless you have activated the targets. An interesting point here would be, what if I shot the activator after I shot the targets? According to the rule in question, then I would not pe penalized.

Essentially what we have here is a rule that needs to be amended or reumbered or both.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

...and since you would not / should not be able to see the targets prior to activation...

Careful here.

Lets not assume that a target is hidden from view just becasue it can be activated.

[Jim Norman]

True enough, a moving target may not be an appearing target. It could be a swinger that starts with just a small portion of the A zone showing.

So should we say that you must activate a moving target prior to engaging it, unless it is a disappearing target?

The current rules do not apparently allow for this. The entire section reads:

9.9 Scoring of Moving Targets

Moving targets will be scored in accordance with the following:

9.9.1 Moving targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest, or which continuously appear and disappear,

will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties

(exception see Rule 9.2.4.5).

9.9.2 Moving targets, which do not comply with the above criteria,

will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where

Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which

initiates the target movement.

9.9.1 addresses the mover that is visible at rest so i suppose that this would actually cover the target that is shot prior to activation, EXCEPT that 9.9.3 still requires us to activate the target so as not to incur penalties. So, where do we go?

9.9.3.1? Except where the target is visible prior to activation. In this case no penalty for FTSA will be acessed however any misses will be penalized in accordance with 9.4.4

We do have a problem with this rule as it currently stands.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

So should we say that you must activate a moving target prior to engaging it, unless it is a disappearing target?

Nope.

We should be able to engage targets "as visible".

On the targets (movers) that I hit, I need to get the points for those hits. And, if I miss the activator, that is the only miss I should be credited with.

If the rules needed tweaked to make that clear...lets tweak them.

[Jim Norman]

I agree, but as written the rules say that is not the case.

The rule needs to be tweaked.

Jim

[GvU]

This game is about 1.1.5

The exception in 1.1.5.1 is to allow smaller clubs to build rather simple stages (level 1 and 2). (That is were you need extra descriptions on what to do and what not to do.)

All I've read so far is moaning about activating a visible target. Level 3 or up: 'shoot the targets as and when visible', means total freedom in how to shoot the stage from within the shooting area [1.1.5]. No limitations!

The limitations are indicated by the stagedesigner and in building one should do the job properly (in my opinion, if possible, the RM should ask the designer what the intents are of the stage in this type of situations). If the stage was intended to have a (difficult) target stationary and easy 'big' while moving, who are you to demand something else. Sounds like you are deadset against 'gaming'. In my opinion the game is to get to the best gameplan and stick to it (within the intentions of the stage, like going through a coopertunnel instead of around).

9.9.3 has everything to do with appearing targets, nothing with already visible targets to be activated. Appearing targets are targets not visible in the startposition! Not the case here, so no application of 9.9.3!

DVC, John

[Jim Norman]

9.9.3 says nothing about appearing or about disappearing or about targets you can see before they are activated.

It says very clearly that the targets must be activated.

9.9.3 Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which

initiates the target movement.

I suppose that if the targets are visible at rest, or appear continuously (9.9.1)

Or if they are simply not visible at all (9.9.2)

you would not get a penalty, but rule 9.9.3 should then be re-written.

The word always means every time as in if there is an activator and you don't activate, you get the penalties. Maybe if you shoot the mover first, then activate you shouldn't get the penalty. But according to the rules, if there is a swinger with the head showing and you shot the head and miss the popper that activates it and leave the target un-activated, then 9.9.3 would seem to imply you get two mikes and a FTSA.

There has to be a way to say what we all know we are trying to say here that does not cause another unintended consequence in the rule.

I think we are trying to say that the targets must be activated to shoot at it, but then a swinger with a head showing at rest, prior to activation would cease to be legal. Maybe we should be saying that targets that are fully concealed untril activation wil lincure misses and FTSA if the shooter elects not to activate the array in order to save time. Example, there is a door with two out & back targets behind it, It is a long run to get to it and I cannot see the targets from anywhere else. I chose to shoot all the other targets and simply not open the door and activate the targets. As written 9.9.3 will apply and you get the penalties. THis is good, you should not be able to simply blow off an array. Now if there is a drop turner that takles to long and compleatly disappears after activation, you activate, but sdon't shoot or shoot an miss, no penalty, it is a disappearing target. Swinger, shoot and miss, you get penalty, it remains visible. Target you simply never activate, that is the problem, with a door, you could not access a miss on the hidden "Movers" although if the targets behind the door were stationalry you could.

We need a rule here that addresses this situation. 9.9.3 really does not.

Jim