Mandrel die or Expander ball?

[pmclaine]

Im in the process of gathering tools to set up for loading .308 and .223.

I load on a Dillon S1050 running two tool heads, one for prep the second for loading.

Currently for 30-06 loading I set the prep tool head up as follows

1. FL size die with sizing ball. Sizer is set to just initially size the case (80%) its main function is deprime and ironing out neck dings.
2. Swage
3. Empty
4. Empty
5. RT1200 with trim/size die that trims brass and brings the case to FL size dimension.
6. Empty
7. Empty

My loading tool head is set up as follows

1. Universal decap to punch out media
2. Empty
3. Prime
4. Powder
5. Empty - Pull case and trickle to weight
6. Seat
7. Empty

Loading progressive Im not expecting lovingly made single stage bench rest rounds but I get pretty good ammo and want to improve where I can.

I think the Dillon trim/size die really squeezes the necks of my brass. I get a little wasp waist where the bullet seats. I dont crimp so this may be a good thing. Im wondering if I can make it a better thing by using the Sinclair mandrel die after the cases are FL sized. I think this may get me a uniform minus .001 neck tension.

Any thoughts on adding a mandrel die to my rifle loading setups?

If it matters Im not annealing, though I really would like a Gracey Annealer at some point.

Thank you for your time.

[RiggerJJ]

Im doing pretty much what your set up does. Except...

I dont worry about too much neck tension, personally I dont think that set up can give you too much. I think the wasp waist is good.

I also crimp to remove the outer burr from the mouth, and to remove the flair from the swage backup rod. I dont deburr or chamfor.

Yep, swage on the loading head, mostly to flair the mouth.

Also swage on the processing head, but the flairing portion of the backup rod is removed.

All Powder is dropped on loading head with a RCBS measure with case activated linkage. Works great with stick powders.

Two passes, remove lube in between, no extra handling. I do both 223 and 308 this way, good ammo, at least moa, mostly for 3 gunning.

jj

Edited October 29, 2013 by RiggerJJ

[pmclaine]

Im doing pretty much what your set up does. Except...

I dont worry about too much neck tension, personally I dont think that set up can give you too much. I think the wasp waist is good.

I also crimp to remove the outer burr from the mouth, and to remove the flair from the swage backup rod. I dont deburr or chamfor.

Yep, swage on the loading head, mostly to flair the mouth.

Also swage on the processing head, but the flairing portion of the backup rod is removed.

All Powder is dropped on loading head with a RCBS measure with case activated linkage. Works great with stick powders.

Two passes, remove lube in between, no extra handling. I do both 223 and 308 this way, good ammo, at least moa, mostly for 3 gunning.

jj

Thank you sir in giving of your time to answer.

My ammo has been pretty good but as I get into new calibers just checking to see if it can be better. Ill leave well enough alone. Dillon would likely sell a mandrel die if they thought it would make better ammo.

Edited October 29, 2013 by pmclaine

[Powder Finger]

I use the mandrel on a 450, don't remember for sure but I think you get .001 or .002 depending on whether you use the E or T mandrel.

Also use a mandrel on single stage loading.

[Doc Hunter]

You may want to try a Lyman "M" die. It will allow you to add a small amount of flare to the case mouth to ease the transition of the bullet into the case (bullets make poor expanders) you don't need much - just a little so the jacket is not damaged. If it makes you feel better, you can remove the slight flare with the crimp die after bullet is seated. Really helps bullets enter straight. This will save your bacon with any flat based bullets.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Doc Hunter

[RiggerJJ]

You may want to try a Lyman "M" die. It will allow you to add a small amount of flare to the case mouth to ease the transition of the bullet into the case (bullets make poor expanders) you don't need much - just a little so the jacket is not damaged. If it makes you feel better, you can remove the slight flare with the crimp die after bullet is seated. Really helps bullets enter straight. This will save your bacon with any flat based bullets.

Swaging rod does the same thing, and swages the primer pocket in the same station...

jj

[Doc Hunter]

Rigger, I think you will find that the Lyman "M" die is capable of way more case mouth flare, and you are not hindered by the adjustment of the primer pocket swage rod in the process. The "M" die is originally designed to flare for cast bullets - it is nothing like a standard mandrel that for instance Sinclair sells.

[pmclaine]

I think you guys may have saved me some money.

After processing I run my brass through the Hornady case prep tool to chamfer, debur, and clean primer pockets. It's an extra step but I don't mind the mindless, boredom of it. It's my peace time. My rounds are all boat tail and I have not had issues with the jackets getting peeled.

I swage prior to final sizing so there is no bell on the case. I don't crimp and haven't had issue with 30-06 slamming through a Garand. I expect no issues with a .308 or .223 AR.

I think I will continue as I have been but I'm going to measure my sized necks and see what I'm getting for actual tension under .308 or .223. If its much greater than .001 or so I'll reconsider the mandrel.

I like riggers idea of the double swage and the turned down backing rod. I guess that method or buying the mandrel/M die would be 6 of 1, half dozen of the other cost wise.

Edited October 30, 2013 by pmclaine

[RiggerJJ]

Swaging on just the loading head and not the processing head will net you the same results; a swaged primer pocket and a flaired case mouth so no damage to flat bottom bullets or shaved boat tails. Using the M die in this case is redundant, thou it is capable of flairing even more than the swage rod, that extra amount of flair is just not needed unless you ARE using cast bullets.

I swage on both passes because I process brass for others to load on their own machines...like I said before I swage on my own loading head only to just slightly flair the case mouth. I crimp that flair back down with the dillon taper crimp because I use auto loader firearms and have seen bad results without crimping. I also did testing with crimping vs not and found better accuracy with the crimp. YMMV

Different strokes... as long as the end result is good ammo that does the job.

jj

Edited October 30, 2013 by RiggerJJ

[pmclaine]

I'm going to run the swage on the loading tool head per your good experiences. What had me shying away from that is I'm never certain if the backer rod is set right at the bottom of the brass and when I think it is it looked to me like it was really opening the case mouth.

I'll break out the Dremel and a cutoff wheel to create some cut away brass and get the backer rod just right.

[Doc Hunter]

Well I guess its all in what you are trying to do. I run a "M" die on the last station of a 550, after the cases have gone through a 1200 case trimmer that's in station 2. The "M" die rolls the sharp edges of the ID from the trimmer out of the way. Cases are then tumbled again and a de-caping die is the first station on a 1050 to hit the primer. The swage station is set to give me the primer crimp removal I want without having to worry about the case mouth as that has already been taken care of.