Yet another dropped gun

[ivanhu]

Gentlemen,

I know that it was a topic here already, but now I'd like to ask you, please consider the following two scenarios.

At the end of the COF, after pulling the trigger, the shooter holsters the gun. Unfortunately, he misplaces it, therefore as soon as he releases the grip, the gun falls. According the current ruling, DQ - the holstering was not completed.

At the end of the COF, after pulling the trigger, the shooter holsters the gun. Unfortunatel,y he misplaces it, but due to his anatomy and the angle of the holster, the gun sits. The RO announces "range is clear", but as soon as the shooter starts to move, the gun falls. Since it was outside of the COF, no DQ.

On top of that, there's another question here. Is the first case really a DQable situation? One might argue that he has holstered the gun, his hand was clear of it, therefore the COF has been finished, but he unfortunately punched the gun, so it fell. In many cases, the RO won't be able to tell the difference. Don't even mention, many ROs declare "range is clear" as soon as the competitor releases the grip (opens his palm), therefore the gun will fall in the middle, or even after the "range is clear" command. Does it really make so much difference?

Now the question is, should we change the rule so that the above two scenarios be ruled equally? What are the pros and cons you see? Before filing an official request to consider the case, I would like to know what you think about it. (The suggestion would be to say that after the pulling of the trigger following the "if clear, hammer down" command, dropping the gun shouldn't be a DQable offence. That "click" is a very clear point of time.)

[Garfield]

Hi Ivan,

Not wanting to be rude or anything, but I think that lately too much time is spent discussing "borderline" cases like I feel this one is too.

It`s easy enough: as soon as you are done shooting there is no time pressure anymore so the shooter has no excuse for not holstering his gun properly.

No need to change anything in the rules as far as I am concerned.

[Skywalker]

Ivan,

don't mean to be rude too, but Garfield's feelings are mine too.

Those are the rules: we have to live with it.

The relevant rules (for dropped gun) are clear, easily understandable and easily enforceable, I wouldn't want to mess with something that works.

Thanks for proposing, anyway.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

OK, I'm going to partially* break my usual "Cone Of Silence" in respect of this issue by telling you that I do not like the language "Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended" because I think it's too vague, and it presents the problems highlighted above by Ivan. In fact, I proposed what I consider to be a clearer definition, and I lobbied for it for two weeks solid, and although my dear friend Yoda fully supported me, our two votes were insufficient to force the following change in committee:

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. (Delete: Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.)

8.3.8 "Range Is Clear" - (Add: When the officiating Range Officer makes this declaration, it signifies that the course of fire has ended.) Competitors or Range Officials must not move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

What do you guys think of the above? If you think it's better, Yoda and I can go to battle once again during the next round of rule reviews.

-------------------------------------------

* "Partially" above means revealing the secret inner workings of the Handgun Rules Committee, but without mentioning the names of the bad guys who did not yield to the awesome power, superior intellect and boyish good looks of The Lord Vader

[Dead Buff]

Vince, I like the proposal. It says "holster the gun"...if you drop it its your prob. I like to keep shooters responsible for their actions. makes life simpler for all and the RO says clear once it is clear according to him, keeping safety with the RO and making it easier with the law 'round here.

I will send the cookies of strength so that you can win this battle

[Radagast]

I prefer your option Vince. 'Range clear' is the end of the COF in the mind of the spectators as well.

We don't need people starting to go forward in anticipation of the RO calling range clear because they think the firearm is holstered. Your option would provide another added level of safety/control on the range.

It also makes the shooter responsible for hostering his gun properly and gives control of the end of the COF to the RO. If for any reason he believes there is a problem he dosn't call range clear, maintaining control over the shooter.

The RO starts the COF with LAMR. He should also finish it. At what point did the control of the range get given to the shooter?

Ken

[Skywalker]

We don't need people starting to go forward in anticipation of the RO calling range clear because they think the firearm is holstered. Your option would provide another added level of safety/control on the range.

...

At what point did the control of the range get given to the shooter?

Ken,

according to IPSC rulebook you're not allowed to move until RIC command is issued, even if you think that the competitor's gun has been properly holstered.

8.3.8 "Range Is Clear" – Competitors or Range Officials must not move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

The control of the range is never given to the shooter, he is only given his time for the attempt between the beep signal and the UASC action.

[Yoda]

What do you guys think of the above? If you think it's better, Yoda and I can go to battle once again during the next round of rule reviews.

Vince,

you know my opinion already ... round up the horses, send the women and children to a safe place, collect all ammo and let's GO!

[Garfield]

Vince,

Good suggestion !

[Unleashed]

Why not just say that dropping a cleared, visually inspected, safe weapon is not a DQable event? You can do a walk through and knock your gun out of the holster without getting booted, so what is the difference?

[Vince Pinto]

Why not just say that dropping a cleared, visually inspected, safe weapon is not a DQable event?  You can do a walk through and knock your gun out of the holster without getting booted, so what is the difference?

The difference is that you're not permitted to handle your gun during a walkthrough, so if the gun falls to the ground, it's usually the result of it being bumped by a prop or another competitor etc.

Dropping a gun during a COF is the result of insufficient (and unsafe) gun handling on the part of the competitor.

[omnia1911]

Hi guys,

OK, I'm going to partially* break my usual "Cone Of Silence" in respect of this issue by telling you that I do not like the language "Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended" because I think it's too vague, and it presents the problems highlighted above by Ivan. In fact, I proposed what I consider to be a clearer definition, and I lobbied for it for two weeks solid, and although my dear friend Yoda fully supported me, our two votes were insufficient to force the following change in committee:

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun.  (Delete: Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.)

8.3.8 "Range Is Clear" - (Add: When the officiating Range Officer makes this declaration, it signifies that the course of fire has ended.) Competitors or Range Officials must not move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer.  Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

What do you guys think of the above? If you think it's better, Yoda and I can go to battle once again during the next round of rule reviews.

-------------------------------------------

* "Partially" above means revealing the secret inner workings of the Handgun Rules Committee, but without mentioning the names of the bad guys who did not yield to the awesome power, superior intellect and boyish good looks of The Lord Vader 

I don't think you should eliminate the words "Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun," from the rule. It signals to the RO that the competitor has finished holstering his gun and can now give the "range is clear" command ending the COF.

Proposed:

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of his holstered handgun, the Range Officer will give the "Range Is Clear" command signifying that the course of fire has ended.

[Neil Beverley]

I don't think you should eliminate the words "Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun," from the rule. It signals to the RO that the competitor has finished holstering his gun and can now give the "range is clear" command ending the COF.

Proposed:

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of his holstered handgun, the Range Officer will give the "Range Is Clear" command signifying that the course of fire has ended.

Ah! But what if there are multiple competitors on a common firing line sharing the same bay?

The RO can't issue a "Range is Clear" command. This needs to remain with the area CRO.

There is an added consideration that in the case I describe above a competitor will remain responsible for his/her gun, even after clearing it and holstering it, until after someone else finishes and eventually the CRO declares Range is Clear. This extends the period during which a competitor can be DQed.