Waiting for front site

[MTN]

Howdy,

So let me try to describe what I am experiencing for the potential teachers out there.

I am primarily a carbine and rifle shooter so the concept of tracking your site and calling shots was something I feel very comfortable doing and came somewhat naturally to me when I started getting serious about pistol work about 2 years ago. After what seems to be about 1,000,000 rounds of 9mm through my pistol I feel I can do this with relative ease and can literally draw the movement of the FSP after each shot(this is something I teach my carbine students who have trouble with recoil management).

This is where I am currently stuck: My front site post takes what seems like an eternity to return to my initial point of aim. I understand that this is a perception relative to the shooter and the event itself is not directly related to the actual time that elapses between shots. The carbine portion of my mind is telling my brain that I do not manage recoil efficiently and therefore have allowed my FSP to wander too far during the recoil phase of the shot string. For years I have been able to run a carbine to the speed that my trigger will allow, which is making this problem seem bigger than it probably is with my pistol shooting. So the question: is this probably a recoil management issue? or is this a combination of different weaknesses that are manifesting themselves as a relatively slow second site picture?

Here is how I have been dividing my range time for the last 6 sessions.

1. SAF: NRA 25 meter bull 10M total points recorded, 10 rnds

2. Ready position: NRA 25M bull 7 meters, 2 rnds, 3 mags

3. From draw: NRA 25M bull 7 meters, 2 rnds, 3 mags

4. From draw: 3x NRA 25m bulls 10 meters, 2 rnds each, 3 mags

5. Bill Drill from ready: NRA 25M bull 7 meters, 3 mags (as fast as I can acquire the black)

REPEAT drill 2,3,4

6. Rifle and shotgun transition drills 3-5 mags

7. SAF NRA 25 meter bull 15 meters total points recorded, 10 rounds

What these sessions have shown me is that I can find the target quickly, but my follow up is slowed by the speed at which my gun returns to the target area. Obviously I am better during the Bill Drill as my mind allows me to fire "acceptable" hits in the black.

I case your wondering this is a standard issue Beretta m92 pistol with standard mil spec ball ammunition. I don't have any competition loads or tweaks to my gun. I know, It probably isn't everyones first choice in weaponry, however it is between the Beretta, a Glock 19c, or 1911 chambered in .45 and I can never get enough ammo to justify using the .45.

If this has been covered in depth somewhere else, I apologize as I could not find the thread using the search function. Any classes on that would be appreciated. I understand if your response is simply to post a link to an exhaustive thread concerning this same topic.

Thanks for the help.

[HI5-O]

sounds like you are waiting for your front site when you should be making the front site return where you want it.

i see bullseye shooters and some rifle shooters let the gun free recoil, which is fine for a single shot, then wait for their sight(s) to return and settle.

don't know how else to put it, just my .02 cents.

[MTN]

sounds like you are waiting for your front site when you should be making the front site return where you want it.

i see bullseye shooters and some rifle shooters let the gun free recoil, which is fine for a single shot, then wait for their sight(s) to return and settle.

don't know how else to put it, just my .02 cents.

Perhaps I am being too passive with my control of the gun. Do you have and drills or cues that you have used to correct this deficiency?

[Flexmoney]

Search for Burkett's Timing Drills.

Describe your grip and stance.

[theycallmeingot]

i would ask the question: is your sight travelling too far? or is it returning too slow? both the same end outcome; waiting too long on the sights. but with different causes.

[MTN]

Search for Burkett's Timing Drills.

Describe your grip and stance.

Left handed shooter. beavertail in line with the radius of shooting arm when arm is by my side. middle, ring, and pinky finger are comfortably wrapped around pistol grip, but not tightly enough to cause tension in trigger finger. Weak hand palm makes contact with strong hand palm at meaty portion of the strong hand. Both thumbs are pointed foward with the strong hand thumb resting on top of the weak hand thumb. weak hand wrist is nearly completely locked foward. Once this is achieved, I create the feeling of "pressing" my hands together at the palms without squeezing my fingers on the gun. My grip is probably 70/30 to 60/40 in favor of the weak hand.

My stance is an iscosceles. Right foot heel about the balls of left foot, feet just outside of shoulder width. Shoulders square to the target or shooting area. slight bend in the knees, leaning foward slightly at the waist.

There are probably a hundred details im leaving out here, but this generally describes my stance and grip.

Thanks for the tip on Burkett's timing drills.

"i would ask the question: is your sight travelling too far? or is it returning too slow? both the same end outcome; waiting too long on the sights. but with different causes"

I know I probably worded this incorrectly earlier, but I feel like the sites are returning too slowly. The sights feel under control during the recoil phase, they just move back into place more slowly than I would like.

Thanks for the help guys.

[theycallmeingot]

if it's returning too slowly, that would indicate to me that you're hanging on to the gun too hard, and/or being overall tense.

if you fire into the backstop as fast you can, and watch your sights, your body tends to loosen up and relax so that you can squeeze the trigger faster. you can also watch the sight movement.

when i shoot something like a 44 magnum, i hang on hard, and squeeze the shot off. if i don't return the gun to the target, it stays cocked up where it recoiled, because i'm hanging on too hard. in competition, you want it to return, so you need to loosen up a bit. Brian's book does a better job of describing this. There are also some videos on it. I'll see if i can dig something up.

Take my advice for what it's worth. I'm only a B class shooter. I can only hope that i'm better at regurgitating information than i am at applying it.

[MTN]

if it's returning too slowly, that would indicate to me that you're hanging on to the gun too hard, and/or being overall tense.

if you fire into the backstop as fast you can, and watch your sights, your body tends to loosen up and relax so that you can squeeze the trigger faster. you can also watch the sight movement.

when i shoot something like a 44 magnum, i hang on hard, and squeeze the shot off. if i don't return the gun to the target, it stays cocked up where it recoiled, because i'm hanging on too hard. in competition, you want it to return, so you need to loosen up a bit. Brian's book does a better job of describing this. There are also some videos on it. I'll see if i can dig something up.

Take my advice for what it's worth. I'm only a B class shooter. I can only hope that i'm better at regurgitating information than i am at applying it.

Thanks for the tips. I am going to get some pics and video shooting some of these drills this afternoon. I should have done that long ago. I was just reading the Burketts timing drill, which I think might help provide a solution to this.

I will say that the Berreta M9 does not fit my hand well at all. I have worked around that guns design for 8 years now, and at some point I guess I have to accept that shooting a pistol that doesn't fit your hand well will always produce less than ideal results.

Excuses aside, I am sure there are a couple of dozen things I can do to make this situation better, without convincing the DOD to let me use my own pistol at work.

thanks again guys