Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 As a SO at these matches, I have to say it is possible that this has happened to me. When I am running a shooter, I am watching the gun for safety problems. I am assuming that the shooter is following the rules for his division. I guess I am naive. In the future, I will be looking for division gamers. One suggestion: Ask the person running the clipboard to count shots, that way you won't be distracted from what you're supposed to be doing. If I was running a stage, and there was an area that needed extra attention --- i.e. potential for the shooter to disappear out of my sight, potential for 180 break, etc. I'd try to get my score keeper into a position where he could watch that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Hi Guys: First of all, I would like to say that I am being critical to anybody's methods for SO'ing. I am an SO Instructor and have been doing this for quite a few years. Let me tell you the method that works very well for me. First of all, I am not there to try to let new shooters make mistakes or let gamers get by with it after the buzzer goes off. An SO should have complete knowledge of how most firearms that participate in IDPA matches function and if they don't know them all, they should learn. When my scorekeeper is finishing up scoring, I am preping the next shooter. I check his holster and mag alignment, I eyeball his weapon. When we get to the line, and he loads and makes ready with a single stack, I ask him if he has a seven or eight round mag. At that point, if he doesn't top off, I make him and then I tell him that he could have gotten a procedure for downloading. If he doesn't understand, I explain it to him. I do the same thing with all types of weapons. Don't have enough space to go into all of them. I know my course of fire. I know where he should be reloading. I watch him to make sure he doesn't shoot extra shots to gain slide lock reloads. I always ask my ASO to follow and watch; however, sometimes it like trying to pull a tooth out of an elephant. I understand the comments about only watching the gun. I have to tell you that doesn't work for me. We all have perphical vision.....like driving a car down the road, you see a ball or kid run out from your side, if we didn't have it, there would be a lot of people killed. I feel very confident that I can stay behind the shooter, watch his gun hand and pick up cover violations, dropping rounds and all that good stuff.So my whole point is.....let's try to stop the problem before it starts. Hopefully if you explain to them what could have happened if the SO would have allowed it, would have been a procedural or two or FTDR. Hopefully, the shooter will catch on and get his act together. I know this is a long post but I don't have the best word skills and could have probably made it shorter. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I think I'd be so happy to see 100 shooters at a club match every month that minor rules infractions wouldn't bother me! Just a personal opinion, I guess, but to me this doesn't seem like a minor rules infraction. It's blatant cheating - if intentional and not simply based on ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Hi Guys:First of all, I would like to say that I am being critical to anybody's methods for SO'ing. I am an SO Instructor and have been doing this for quite a few years. Let me tell you the method that works very well for me. First of all, I am not there to try to let new shooters make mistakes or let gamers get by with it after the buzzer goes off. An SO should have complete knowledge of how most firearms that participate in IDPA matches function and if they don't know them all, they should learn. When my scorekeeper is finishing up scoring, I am preping the next shooter. I check his holster and mag alignment, I eyeball his weapon. When we get to the line, and he loads and makes ready with a single stack, I ask him if he has a seven or eight round mag. At that point, if he doesn't top off, I make him and then I tell him that he could have gotten a procedure for downloading. If he doesn't understand, I explain it to him. I do the same thing with all types of weapons. Don't have enough space to go into all of them. I know my course of fire. I know where he should be reloading. I watch him to make sure he doesn't shoot extra shots to gain slide lock reloads. I always ask my ASO to follow and watch; however, sometimes it like trying to pull a tooth out of an elephant. I understand the comments about only watching the gun. I have to tell you that doesn't work for me. We all have perphical vision.....like driving a car down the road, you see a ball or kid run out from your side, if we didn't have it, there would be a lot of people killed. I feel very confident that I can stay behind the shooter, watch his gun hand and pick up cover violations, dropping rounds and all that good stuff.So my whole point is.....let's try to stop the problem before it starts. Hopefully if you explain to them what could have happened if the SO would have allowed it, would have been a procedural or two or FTDR. Hopefully, the shooter will catch on and get his act together. I know this is a long post but I don't have the best word skills and could have probably made it shorter. Ron Durham My hat is off to you, really. However, I have trouble finding enough people willing to run a timer at our monthly match, let alone have a complete grasp of the rules and weaponry. I wish our club had your type of dedication but everyone wants to show up, shoot and get the hell out of there. It is the same 6-7 guys setting up the match and tearing it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Forsyth Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 by BillD,My hat is off to you, really. However, I have trouble finding enough people willing to run a timer at our monthly match, let alone have a complete grasp of the rules and weaponry. I wish our club had your type of dedication but everyone wants to show up, shoot and get the hell out of there. It is the same 6-7 guys setting up the match and tearing it down. You just nailed my club. Ron, I understand fully what you are saying, as a SOI and AC, getting good EXPERIENCED SO's who are willing to keep doing it and not get burned out is getting more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 On the topic that started this thread, I’m wondering why you don’t cover these issues at the shooter meeting. Unless I have the “usual suspects” at a match I always make a point of covering the peculiarities of IDPA so that everyone knows what to expect. That speech includes a brief review of reload-with-retention, what we consider “fully loaded” and a rant on the use of cover, among other topics. I specifically address the use of high-caps as it applies to IDPA. I also make sure that everyone has declared a division and a classification. It took me a lot longer to create this paragraph than it takes to make the speech. Our club will never be able to put up the sort of participation numbers that you guys have but we still have the same problem with set-up help. It is like that in every organization I have ever been in. We have less trouble with tear-down. After the last stage I ask everyone to pull targets and move props as they head out of the range. That usually gets about 90% of the work done and most of the guys do it without grumbling too much. Being safe, having fun...shooting to win geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Duane-ster... You know I love you like a brother, but "cheating" is a very big word with very big implications. I say take the guys aside, mention that they're outside the rules and tell them how you *knew* they'd do the right thing! If that doesn't work, then they are cheaters, so hang 'em high. Speaking of good sportsmanship, I filmed the inaugural Western 3-Gun championships a couple of weekends ago out at Piru. W3G is essentially cowboy shooting for people who actually want to shoot. It includes shooting and loading on the move, steel targets with center knockdowns at distances not seen in cowboy matches since the glory days of China Camp, comstock scoring and prize tables. One guy (who's name escapes me at the moment) who finished I believe HOA in black powder, which guaranteed a gun at the table, disqualified himself for having a live round in his rifle. Nobody saw it but him. Class act all the way! mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Duane-ster...You know I love you like a brother, but "cheating" is a very big word with very big implications. I say take the guys aside, mention that they're outside the rules and tell them how you *knew* they'd do the right thing! Michael-ster, my brother... I see your point. Tact, thy name is Bane. W3G is essentially cowboy shooting for people who actually want to shoot. It includes shooting and loading on the move, steel targets with center knockdowns at distances not seen in cowboy matches since the glory days of China Camp, comstock scoring and prize tables. Now THAT sounds like fun. That sort of thing could actually get me out to fire my second ever CAS match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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