IDPA scenarios

[jdt]

If mobility/health becomes an issue with your favorite shooting sport, maybe it's time to compete in another sport like NRA, Bianchi or Bullseye to channel your competitive energies and play to the best of your abilities in the more active disciplines like IDPA and IPSC. I love Baseball but when I became to old to play fast pitch hardball competitively and did not try to change the game to match my degrading ablilities. I could have used a larger lead off the bag than the quicker fellas or maybe make the pitcher throw underhand to everyone so that all levels of abilities could compete. I played until I felt I could not compete. Now I play slow pitch softball where the game is more about getting out on the diamond with friends more than anything else. I understand the need to keep shooters involved and to bring in new shooters and all the other PC reasons that people use, but I feel that the games, ISPC/IDPA, should not be brought down to just another stand and shoot match for those reasons. If you like to shoot IDPA shoot it to the best of your ability as the stage calls for and take the procs. or the extra time as needed. Don't change the game. Isn't trying to win in IDPA not in the spirit of the game? Isn't it suppossed to be all about how you shoot and not how you shoot against others?

[ron durham]

Hello:

I will try to answer each one of your posts in order: GRD, thanks for your posts, you get it. The truth be known most of our members don't like waddling in the mud either. I bet your stages don't suffer any ill effects by not starting somebody in a prone or kneeling position. Thanks for your response.

Rufus & JDT: Where did either one of you get that we are talking about people not being able to kneel? We are talking about people getting up from a kneeling position or a prone position. I am talking about alternatives in the start position and have never said that kneeling or prone position shouldn't be used in a scenario.....but at the end of the scenario when possible. I am going to skip over the reference that folks like me should find another sport. You wouldnt' like my response.

Oh, GRD, remember in the classifier you don't get up and run after you kneel do you? Just a thought.

Ron Durham

[jdt]

Ron

I didn't intend to imply that you should find another sport, just to not try to alter the one you are in to match your abilities to make you more competitive. If it takes you 4-5 seconds longer than the young guys to get up from your knees, who cares. Shoot the match to the best of your ability. I just feel that lowering the standards/requirements to a base level to make everything fair and so everyone gets a turn at winning is wrong in any sport. I thought that one way to keep your competitive adreneline flowing would be to try a less movement based shooting discipline and kick some young people a**. It sounds like you have quality shooting skills. Did not mean to offend.

[short_round]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT FOLLOWS

Course designers MUST refrain from designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters.

next define "substantially disadvantage"

[ron durham]

Hi JDT:

No offense taken. You do make some good points. I have been an advocate for the older shooters since about 1995 when I was paralazed from a condition called Gillian Barre Syndrome, 8 yrs. of intense therapy and the love of the sport kept me improving. I have been as low as you can go and almost back to normal. My desire for competing drove me on.

The mind set I am trying to get across, at least with me, I design all my own stages, I don't take them out of a book and what I am trying to get across is... you can still have all the kneeling, the prone and all the other good things that comes along with our shooting, drop turners, steel, swingers and so on and have a great stage without starting a guy on all fours or in prone. If you are going to start them in a kneeling, please have something they can push off of to help them get up. If you have that in your mind when you design the stage, it is pretty simple. I know some people are listening and that is good enough reward for me. I think maybe I will shut up about this. Again I am not advocating lowering any standards of the stage. Okay, I think I am finally done......and I love action shooting, I just don't think I could do the NRA or Bianci....come to think of it there is no place around here where I could do it.

Finally done,

Ron Durham

[Mark Perez]

A good goal might be to keep the stages as practical as possible..without alienating a large portion of your customers.

I think the key is...know your customers.

Flexmoney

Flex nailed it dead center.

Back when I was running one of our weekend matches (of which there were 3), my match was promoted as Extreme IDPA - actually 'Marks Madness' "where competitors could expect to get a little dirty".

Most everyone knew ahead of time what to expect and novice shoters were not permitted to participate. Unknown shooters had to have some kind of practical experience ie, IDPA or USPSA classification (mm/D or higher) or have someone who would vouch for their ability.

Promoting the match this way kept the "mobility challenged" - except for ''Wheelie " , I think he lives for this stuff - warned in advance.

Knee pads were at times provided and encouraged but few ever took up the offer.

For a while it was the biggest drawing match in attendance.

fwiw ,

Mark

[Rufus The Bum]

So here is he question, should we change the whole scenario for a few shooters or allow them to start differently because of a disability..

Yes, you can start in any position, but a procedural should be given if they do not assume the required start position. There is a fine line when it comes to accomidating ALL shooters. Should you cater your match just to accomidate a few people with disabilities? I think not. Having a little phyical ability is a pre-requisit for competition shooting.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Hi Mr. Round Gun Shooter:

Well good for you.....bite the bullet and go home with sore knees doesn't bother you? (SNIP) I will say it again, there is no way that ole guys can keep up with young guys when it comes to sprinting from A to B, that is a given but don't handicap an ole fella by putting him in a position where they lose 4-5 seconds just trying to get up. Well that is my view.

Ron Durham

Actually Ron, I never said it did not bother me. I said, I look for no special treatment for a minor problem.

As far as going home pain free, that is not going to happen so yes, I "Bite the Bullet" and deal.

The problem with IDPA in part, is elimination of the "Squat" which can be substituted for kneeling.

You advocate moving the kneeling position to a later part of the stage. I recently shot a stage where it was stand and shoot while retreating, kneel behind the vehicle using cover, then traverse the front of the vehicle and shoot from the other side. Very difficult to do when the vehicle is made of cardboard so you can not use it to get up.

I am no martyr, but I just don't think stages should be changed for me. It's bad enough I shoot SSR

I appreciate your position and hope I get to shoot stages you design some day. For now, I just choose where I shoot very carefully and I Do where knee pads.

Best regards,

Gary

[GRD]

Oh, GRD, remember in the classifier you don't get up and run after you kneel do you?

I did take notice of that. I think it shows an example of what we're talking about, and speaks the the 'substantially disadvantaged' phrase: a small run and assuming a kneeling position will certainly disadvantage some shooters with respect to other, more 'limber' shooters, but does not rise to the level of a 'substantial' disadvantage.

I see no reason we can't use that as a rule-of-thumb for our stage design.

- Gabe

[ron durham]

Hi Gabe:

Thanks for your reply and this is definately my last post on this subject. I did a little stumbling on explaining myself or how I feel about this subject. On page 2, the last post by me explains pretty well my feelings on this subject. As I said, it is a mind set on stage design. I can easily design a stage that is fun and challenging without starting some poor smow on all fours or in a prone position and that is what I am talking about.....if a person doesn't want to do it and make it as difficult as they can for the older folks, well let's put it this way.....I don't need a rule to tell me if that is right or wrong. I know I reached a few people with my views and that understand we are not talking about changing the stage for a handicapped person or a person with bad legs, we are talking about stage design. I know there are a few out there who could care less kind of like I used to be. Like John said, this could go on forever but we all probably have a little different point of view from each person and that is a good thing. Done for good!!!!!

Ron Durham

[The Manager]

Sac Law Man,

I've been shooting with you and Ron about a year now and like you enjoy the running and gunning. I haven't paid much attention to the demographics of the club, just that I get beat by young and old every month . I have yet to take the leap into stage design but have noticed my favorite stages becoming the ones that are not follow-the-leader. The most physically demanding stages seem to be fast as you can, shoot a bunch and stay on the trail scenarios (follow the leader). To me the more open-ended scenarios are more satisfying but do sometimes get picked apart during walk-through. Feels like most people want to be told exactly what to do rather than using a little imagination. I do not see a bias toward a specific age group/ability at this club, which must translate to a broad spectrum of stage designers.

Just a FNG's (fairly new guy's) 2 cents .

[Sac Law Man]

Manager,

We have a great club, and considering we have between 60 and 80 shooters each month proves we are doing things right..I think because of the competitive nature of humans, we all want to know what we can and can not do. We also want things to be fair. Thanks for the reply..I think everyone who contributed to this post gave valuble insight..

[outlier01]

Sac Law Man, you said "However, in our local matches we NEVER shoot from the prone position, rarely shoot from kneeling, and now are changing the scenarios and ultimately the integrity of the scenario."

Au contraire, we do have occasional scenarios that include prone positions. More frequently, we do have scenarios that include kneeling positions. I've put them together myself. I clearly recall shooting other stages prone. And, I recall the scabbed elbows that I got diving to prone. Well, not diving exactly. More like a semi-controlled collapse.

The problem with the scenario that you cite was that the shooters would have had to start kneeling. I know that some of our less agile shooters could do this, but would be in traction afterward. They are able to get down into a kneeling position, but are slow to get up and one or two might occasionally need help doing so.

In another post, you note that you're tired of the invocation of the defensive aspects of our sport. You point out that it's a game and that we want to compete without catering to the percieved needs of a small number of shooters. I would guess that in a truly defensive encounter those with bad knees would simply 'suck it up', do it, suffer and risk potential permanent injury. Lifes would be at stake. In a 'game', however, why would we require anyone to injure themselves?

But, we love you still even if you are left handed!

[Practical Use]

Actually, I was the stage designer. The reason for the change was simplicity and running a faster match so that we could get to the banquet. Yes, there was some discussion regarding right hand vs left hand friendly, but the change had nothing to do with bad knees or age.

Ed

[Robert Carr]

Ron Durham wrote:

Some of you guys probably think I should join AARP....that is a thought maybe I could get them to sponsor me. Ha.

Nope. Bad plan. AARP supports the Brady Campaign. Unlikely they'd sponsor a shooter. In any case, they aren't getting any of my money.