LeRoy's Trial's and Travail's Trying To Shoot Open

[LPatterson]

This is going to be disrupted shortly by our winter but if I don't start I can't hope to get much help.

The gun is a Glock 24C because I bought it at a reduced price at a sporting goods store trying to reduce inventory and I have lots of 40 brass. The optic is a C-More on a Carver mount, still trying diodes 6-8-12. Tried an Optima on a G21C Open project and it beat the plastic lens to death. Still having problems with brass catching in the ejection port but I am hoping to work that out with springs and load. I have lowered the ejection port slightly and removed some metal from the bottom of the mount.

Still trying to work up a load but the bullet will be a Montana Gold 155gr HP (supporting made in Montana). I am using a Hunting Shack 165gr Plated FP for practice (because they are another Montana company and I get a discounted price). The powder is the questionable part as I have N340, N350, Autocomp, Universal Clays, True Blue, Silhouette, 7625 & Unique on hand. For now the load is 6.0 Unique with 165gr HSM bullet @ 1.130 with mostly CCI primers (more later) brass is *Federal*. Match brass will be Federal with Federal primers.

Range is an outdoor Bullseye pistol club (Ed McGivern) so I am limited to shooting from the 25 yard line shelf at targets in their target frames (24X24). I asked about setting a target out at 15 yards while I was chronographing and was refused.

Enough background. Now some fact or fiction. I was told by a Master class open shooter that I should be shooting from a chicken wing (elbows out) shooting stance. When I try it my support hand separates from the bottom of the grip and the gun tries to tilt to the left (right handed). The best I can do is elbows pointed down at about a 45 degree angle, my normal shooting stance but with the hands pulled in (arms not locked out).

For practice I am using the 6MOA dot as the 12 washed out the 6" plate I was trying to use for bench shooting, I may go back to 12 come summer when the sun shows over the mountain and the targets are closer. Last 2 range sessions have been productive in that I can now keep most of my shots in the A zone (paper bag with A zone drawn on it) using an aiming paster. Since drawing is also against the rules I have been using 2 different methods, a GSSF starting position and where the gun starts in one hand about belt level. With the gun starting in both hands I can extend and shoot in one motion within a second or so (haven't used a timer yet) with about 75% A Zone hits. From the one handed position I am having trouble stabilizing the dot and the hits drop to about 50% A and most of the rest C's. In the front room I didn't notice this during dryfire drills but then I only have about 5 yards to work with.

Back to an earlier comment; so far I have had about 50 failures to fire the first time through though they did fire the second time. The CCI primers were some I had laying around (probably 40 years old) and may have included some Magnum's also since I don't plan to shoot anymore .357 Magnums that aren't already primed.

[LPatterson]

The travail's continue. The gun had about 1000 rounds though it so I decided to clean it. Found a very long scratch in the bottom of the C-More mount almost 1/16" deep. To fix it required taking the mount off the frame then the C-More off the mount, maybe not but that is what I did. Used a sanding disc and stone in the dremel to thin out the mount at the back until the scratch was almost removed. Got a carbide cutter and lowered the ejection port more (need to get measurements and compare to my other 24). Since I removed the C-More from the mount and the mount from the frame I felt I should rezero the gun.

Trial's start, wind is reported as 21MPH with gust to 48MPH from the SW so it is coming over the bluff backstop and down into the range. Range is covered with a front eyebrow to keep shooters from being able to aim at the top of the bluff which has microwave antennas, back of the shooting area has a wall.

Started to zero the gun shooting off sandbags on shelf, seated in folding chair. Method; mount resting lighty on sandbags with elbows resting on shelf. Finally got gun zeroed to about a 3" group around my aiming paster. Wind made it impossible to shoot from a standing freestyle position, so I built up the sandbags to where I had a pretty level straight back shooting position with the head upright and the gun just touching the sandbags. DISASTER, the gun is now shooting 6" right. The only change was a fairly locked elbow behind the gun position, elbows on the shelf, to a bent elbow pointing down at about a 45 degree angle, with the elbows just below shoulder level. Need to experiment with this position further and see if I can duplicate it in dry fire.

Did not experience any jams in the 200+ rounds, which is a big improvement so I guess the grinding helped. There is still a scratch forming in the bottom of the mount which looks like it may be from the mouth of the case hitting it during ejection. Next step may be removing the ejector from the trigger housing and heating it up and trying to bend it to strike the case higher.

A couple more range sessions and I should be through the CCI primers and can start with Winchester. Looks like I may need to find another bullet source too as I wont be close to Stevensville for awhile.

[Chris iliff]

If it was me I'd get a 9 Lone Wolf barrel and shoot 9 in open. But, I don't have a ton of .40 brass. It would get you more rounds per magazine and there are a lot of good loads for 9 using some of the powders you mention.

But that's just me. Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

.40 Open is definitely viable. I don't think it would hold anyone back.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Chris iliff

[LPatterson]

Chris,

Thanks for the thought and I may get there yet afterall the first Open gun was a G21. I recently acquired another slide and a 40-9 conversion barrel but it is planned for GSSF and Steel Challenge. I can get 24 rounds reloadable with a Taylor extension and 19 with an Arrendondo so that should get me through most stages. I am a brass hog and probably have 5000 rounds of everything I shoot and probably gave away that much 40 before I stumbled on this 24C. Someday my kids are going to wonder why Dad had thousands upon thousands of bullets and pieces of brass. Hell there's still 20000 Federal LP for the revo I don't even have any more.

[Chris iliff]

That's funny. I think we all have accumulated stuff. Good luck in the build!!

Edited November 11, 2011 by Chris iliff

[LPatterson]

Well I thought today was going to be the day to finally get in some shooting. The past three days the wind has been around 20 MPH with gusts to 48 MPH and the range is behind a bluff with 5-10 miles of open wheat fields. Left the house with sunshine and 40 degrees with no wind, got out of the valley and the bluff where the range is is covered in snow. The floor of the covered shooting area [12 foot prime roof with a 10 foot eyebrow] is completely wet. I'm there I am going to shoot. I managed to get in 60 shots before the wind started blowing the snow under the roof causing spots on my glasses and the C-More lens. Fortunately I was managing to keep most of them in the A zone before I gave up.

Much as hate it, I guess it is back to dry fire to see if I can get the dot to stop bouncing so badly when I extend toward the target.

Change to clean up spelling problems.

Edited November 14, 2011 by LPatterson

[LPatterson]

Mild case of cabin fever, sun is shining, Weatherunderground.com is reporting 32 with winds SSW @ 14MPH. Don't really want to pickup brass so took the 22/45 (C-More on a TacSol barrel & comp) for some response drills. Doing ok for me with times in the .21 to .22 range with the gun aimed at a paster on a target at 25 yards. Colder than I thought as the battery in the CED7000 died after about 100 rounds and it was fully charged before I started. Switched to presentations from the GSSF ready trying to figure out how to damp the shake on the dot as the arms extend. The position that seems the steadiest is what I am calling a modified chicken wing; the arms are maybe 3/4 extended with the elbows down about 30 degrees from horizontal. With this position the dot stays in the lens on firing, though on checking the target the bullets holes are lower than they should be. Brought out some sand bags (actually bags of spent primers) and the Federal 550 bulk pack are shooting 3" lower than the Winchester 333 or what ever it was I had before. TacSol Comp did a number on the sand bag though and had to wrap it with duct tape to keep the primers in. Finished off with 240 rounds of slow fire working on squeeze & followthru.

Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny in the 40's so I'll work on the arm position with the G24.

[LPatterson]

The travails continue, suns out, temp low 40's, but alas the wind is howling. Check of KGTF METAR for 0900 has wind 30 with gusts to 37, wind chill 35, next prediction for above freezing temp is next Thursday.

Total retirement is not what it is cracked up to be when it is no fun being outside. I thought about loading some more 40's with the Dillon dies I just bought but I still have most of a 50 caliber ammo box full so I think I will wait on that. I did receive some 55gr .223 so I could load them and use up the H335 I have so I can try another powder, I heard TAC is good. Bench rest shooting is not as hard as pistol shooting as the wind is at the 180 on the rifle range vs the 270 on the pistol range.

If push comes to shove I could order a comp for the conversion barrel/slide I bought for the G24 and load some 9mm. I think I remember a few 100 pieces of +P+ brass in an order I received when I was getting started for Production.

[LPatterson]

Weather turned out better than predicted but I am more confused than ever.

Still can't seem to get the hang of shooting without the arms extended aka chicken wing. Dot wants to jump around on presentation and the dot goes somewhere into never ever land. First 2 mags had a stovepipe type jam on 1st round, mags loaded from slide lock. Had a jam where the case did a 180 within the ejection port. Changed from a 14# Wolff to a 12# Wolff to slow the slide closing but the brass started skating 12-15 feet across the concrete and the slide seemed to have a thud at full recoil. Had another stove pipe and I think I may have been riding the slide with my thumb. So I moved the *thumb rest [generic]*(thumb rest) up a 1/2" to get the thumb more off the slide and the groups moved 4" to the right. After a fight with the C-More finally got the group centered again (it wanted to changed the elevation when I changed the windage). Went to a 13# IMSI and the brass is staying closer but groups moved 2" to the right again. Verified with a 2nd target. Color me confused! Adjusted C-More again,

Went back to arms extended but not locked and there is the dot, fairly stable, and I can keep it in the lens. I think the Open master confused the way his gun/comp reacted with the way my gun/holes in the barrel reacts. Finally got the accuracy rate up to about 90% slow fire for the last 6 mags (15 rounds each).

Have an IMSI size tungsten guide rod I want to try next trip.

[LPatterson]

Well the high wind warnings have finally expired so it was out to try a new load; 7.0 Autocomp, 165gr HSM plated bullet, Federal case, Federal primer, OAL 1.115 [used factory Federal 155 as guide]. That powder & weight with a 155MG gave me a 172 to 177 depending on the primer. Noticeably more recoil than the Unique load but the top 1/2" of the case is covered with soot like it is not sealing. Group size is about the same but it was 3" high & 3" right of the Unique load so time to find a different just barely major practice load. Also tried some factory Federal 155gr JHP [XM40HB] which were 4" high & 2" right of the Autocomp load. If we can get some sun with no wind I would love to chrono this stuff. I think I may buy myself an infrared screen set for Christmas.

Still getting the occasional stove pipe and failure to fire with the Unique and unknown primer load [maybe CCI or magnum primer]. Still getting the gouge in the bottom of the C-More mount [Carver] from ejecting brass. Time to file on the ejector again and repaint the mount.

The dot is getting easier to find so I guess the dry fire is doing more than just wasting a battery. Back to the books to see if I can increase the Autocomp load or if I want to try another powder I have on hand.

[LPatterson]

Beautiful day today, high 40's almost no wind. Over the weekend I loaded up 3 different loads to try, 6.6 WSF, 7.2 True Blue & 7.8 HS-6 with 165 gr HSM plated FP. For some unknown reason I loaded 100 each, more about that later. Started by blowing off 10 rounds of each into the berm to see what they felt like. Should mention here that I installed a Lone Wolf G24 slide to see what it feels like, gun feels a little heavier. During initial blast had 1 True Blue stove pipe.

Off sand bag, True Blue centered but 3" high, HS-6 4" high dot recovers quicker but ejection only 3', WSF 3" high tighter group ejection about 6'. Using each load got group center down to aiming point. Forcing gun into sand bag versus just resting on bag moved the groups about 4" low and left.

With the sun out and no wind went back for the chrono. Change in shooting style, applied Pro Grip and lightly touched sand bag with bottom of C-More mount.

Chronoed 2 groups of 10:

WSF H 1053 L 993 ES 59 SD 19 AV 1023 PF 168.9 - H 1061 L 1017 ES 44 SD 13 AV 1033 PF 170.5 Best groups going to try some more up a tenth as the lowest was below PF

HS-6 H 1021 L 935 ES 85 SD 22 AV 981 PF 161.8 - H 1031 L 935 ES 99 SD 24 AV 972 PF 160.4

True Blue H1011 L 979 ES 32 SD 11 AV 994 PF 164.0 - H 1039 L 977 ES 61 SD 18 AV 996 PF 164.3

In every case the first shot in each string was the highest velocity and it was from slide lock.

Noticed lens was cloudy and flakes of powder on the bench. Probabily from the HS-6 since WSF and True Blue are finer than sugar.

Took slide off to change recoil spring and noticed lots of soot behind the barrel opening. Apparently the barrel is not tight against the breach face or the extractor is holding a case from fully seating. Lone Wolf slide was purchased with a conversion 40/9 Lone Wolf threaded barrel for a possible GSSF/Steel Challenge gun.

Cut some cardboard to staple to a metric target so it would fit into the 24"x24" frame I am required to have a target mounted into. Initially had some trouble finding the center of the A Zone since my other targets had an aiming dot. By aiming higher than I thought necessary I managed to start keeping most of the shots in the A Zone.

Dug up a Bob Allen shotgun bag to take the ammo to the range and it works great as a brass bag as it has a pouch for shotgunners to put their hulls in. Pouch is wide enough to pick my brass up in a dust pan and dump it in the pouch.

Would love to shoot again tomorrow but I need to rake leaves before the predicted rain on Wednesday & Thursday.

[LPatterson]

After cleaning and depriming all the brass I thought this should be added as a separate post. Almost none of the primers show the customary square mark of the firing pin, if it was there it was very light. A check of websites indicates that the firing pin is most likely a ZEV. The firing pin safety plunger was not installed so that is not an issue. Some cases showed indications that there was a small amount of primer flattening but not by much. But more cases showed the firing pin mark slightly off center but not smeared like firing out of battery. I don't think it was locking up the same every time either from dirt or the recoil spring. After about 200 rounds I did change to a different 13# (I think) spring and a tungsten guide rod. I think all this is cause to remove the Lone Wolf slide for now. The original slide has a Jager firing pin and always leaves a nice square mark.

[LPatterson]

Overestimated the temp and underestimated the wind but it wasn't noticable until I got out to open the range gate.

Made up some more test rounds, 7.3 True Blue w/165gr HSM plated FN to try and according to the weather guessers the next day above freezing is next Thursday. With the sun behind all the clouds and the wind blowing my thermometer had 32. Sacrificed the fingertip of a shooting glove, only to discover the group was 4" right and 2" low for 20 rounds. Ran a second 20 rounds to verify. Realized that I had pulled the Lone Wolf slide and put back on the factory Glock slide without rezeroing. With Federal primers there is no sign of pressure and the primer mark is back to an identifiable Glock mark. Thumb started hurting really bad so rezeroing will have to wait for next week. Will make up another 100 rounds @ 7.4 to check for feel.

[LPatterson]

I can get really stupid when I get bored and today was one of those days. Sun shining (severe clear), winds about 10MPH, temp about 40 so off to the range. Wind in town may have been 10 but at the range it was a bunch more. Used up the last of the 7.3 of trueblue getting the C-More zeroed and settling in. Made up some loads with 7.4 of TB to see if they would tighten or loosen the groups. Started with a pretty relaxed, elbows shoulder width apart string of 20. On my other target, I broght the elbows in so they were pointing almost straight down. Two things happened the groups went from 1 side of my paster to the other and I had 2 stovepipes with the elbows done. Put up new targets for further investagation. Got the same results including the 2 jams. They were from 2 different mags and at different round counts. Check of records showed a 15# spring w/4 coils cut off at a tungsten GR. Dug out a 13# IMSI on a captive SS GR. Made another run both ways, same group locations but no jams.

I think I like the feel with the elbows out as the dot seems to recover faster. Weather is supposed to be warmer tomorrow but with more wind so I am going to load some more and see what I can see.

[LPatterson]

Well a little windier than I would have liked but this is Great falls. The 7.5 of TB is not bad and I got an acceptable group for me. It all went to hell when I stopped shooting off the bags and tried free style. The group went 3-4" left into a vertical string, first with elbows out and again when I brought them in tight like I was shooting my single stack. While I was sitting around feeling sorry for myself, I discovered I was trying to shoot like I did with a single stack with the trigger out on the tip of my finger. After a mag with the trigger almost at the crease I think I may be onto something because the group jumped as far right as it had been left. A few more mags even with elbows in stayed in the same area. The elbows out thing appears to provide better recoverability and/or less dot movement. Had another stovepipe jam with what was an older mag, before the SF front cutout. Have springs available so I’ll try that first. Switched to practice ammo and had some more jams so it is looking like something other than mags. I think I have just been fooling myself shooting HSM plated bullets after the problems I had with Berry’s 9mm. I just decided to put them aside and maybe I can sell them to someone else in the club. Time to clean all my mags and maybe even number them.

[LPatterson]

Velly intellesting (i don't do a good Sgt Schultz imitation). Switching bullets so I thought I would make some checks, Montana Gold 40 cal 165gr HP; sample size, ES 154.9 155.3; .4000-.4005. Also dedided to try Winchester WSP primers, which are loaded in *FEDERAL* cases. Had some drag lifting the powder die that I had not felt with plain FEDERAL cases. Measuring the *FEDERAL* cases show about the sames inconsistencies as plain FEDERAL cases except they are slightly thicker (~ .0002-.0003) Still with True Blue (made in Belgium, distributed from Montana) but I am not listing charge until I try them as OAL is 1.135. Try to test them tomorrow (I am not only old I am lazy and I am going to bed).

[LPatterson]

6" high and 3" right. That's the group shift between the 7.5 True Blue 165gr HSM plated and 7.8 of TB with a 155gr MG HP. After a whole lot of tweaking I finally got the group centered around my aiming point. Had a couple more stovepipes that I think may be caused by my thumb on the slide. Removed the *thumb rest [generic]* but didn't have enough ammo left for a complete guarantee. Load some more tonight.

[LPatterson]

Plan of attack was to shoot up the last of the loaded plated bullets. Murphy's Law says "No plan survives the first contact with the enemy". I had zeroed the gun for the Montana Gold load the last time out and now these plated things are 6-7" low & 3" right. Had 7 failure to fire, 3 took 3 tries. 3 stovepipes, 1 turned 180 in the ejection port. Oh well aimed at the left shoulder and tried to learn some trigger control.

Learning curve with the paster gun, if it is too far off parallel then the leading edge of the paster turns under.

Finally got rid of all the plated things and decided to verify the zero. At 25 yards the 8MOA dot seems too big for accuracy and washes out the aiming paster. So I swapped in a 6MOA dot and moved the group center 8" high (crap). It was such a pain to get in that I decided to leave it. Not much of a difference in dot size as it still covers the paster and it requires another click on the rheostat for the same apparent brightness. Still trying to figure out the MOA thing.

Without the thumb rest (*thumb rest [generic]*) the mag release is digging into the pad of my hand below my thumb so it is going back on.

I don't know if it was the sun angle of the ligher than normal wind but I was seeing some smoke that I didn't see with the 7.5 & plated bullets. I wanted to do the made in Montana stuff but since I found out the powder is made in Belgium I think I will try Autocomp next.

[LPatterson]

Maybe last chance to shoot this year so I decided to try some SHO-WHO. I really really suck at WHO because I couldn't find the dot for the first shot. After finding the dot I was able to keep about 95% of the shots on paper over the course of about 100 shots. I wasn't much better SHO except it was easier finding the dot. Changed back to a 13# recoil spring with a tungsten guide rod. Seemed like the slide had too much speed and brass was going about 20-30' across the concrete. Used 160 rounds doing transition drills on targets 3' apart. Did OK going right to left and overshot a lot of shots going left to right. Gun is heavy enough with a Carver mount & C-More so I think the tungsten GR needs to come out. Going to load magazines for the next weather break and see if the # of rounds in the mag has any effect.

[LPatterson]

Another warm day shot to hell. Planned to work on splits. Damn near couldn't get the truck door open to get to the gate. At the range put up 2 targets, went back to the shooting area got out my eyes, ears, timer & a gun. Only had 1 target, the other was half way back to the shooting area. Said screw it. First pair recorded as 4 shots, 1 .09 reaction, 2 .34 split, 3 .09 & 4 .68. Second pair recorded as 6 shots. Tried another CED 7000 same shit. Then it was just use the beep to start. Patching the targets was another trip, the wind caught the paster coming off the spool and pulled out almost 3' before I stopped it. Wound it all back up and 1 hand holding the tape gun and the other holding the spool pasting the target. Gave it up after 3 20 round mags. Got home, National Weather Service has a high wind warning posted with winds 32-34 with gusts to 50. A high wind warning usually means a station in the area has experienced a gust exceeding 75 MPH.