SSR reload ruling

[scandog]

At my last match, I had a situation come up. let me know how you would have ruled.

Note: Periods are spacers to get the stage to look correct. There were walls running from front to the back so you could only see the targets you were shooting at.

T4.T5.T6...|..T3.T2.T1...|.T9.T8.T7

__W_____|_D_ ...........|____W___

........st1........................st2

.............S

The stage had you starting at the left side of the range "S" with your empty weapon and two mags or speedloaders on a stand "st1". You also had a mag or speedloader on stand "st2". On the signal you were to pull open the door "D", then move to "st1" load your gun, acquire the targets through the window with two shots each in priority. Reload with ammunition from the stand "st1" then acquire the targets through the left window "W" with two shots each in priority. Move to stand "st2" and reload then acquire T7-9 with two shots each while kneeling.

I thought pretty straight forward. I had a revolver shooter ask if he could move from the left window to the right window empty. As 6 shots are required to shoot T4-T6, I replied yes. When he ran the stage, he shot T1-3, reloaded, Shot T4-6, dumped his moon clip and ran across the open center of the range, Finished his reload at "st2" and shot T7-9. I gave him a procedural for starting his reload at the left side of the range and leaving cover to finish his reload at the right side of the range.

I have warned him before about reloading his revolver and not using cover. He argued I had told him he could cross the open part of the range empty. As he only had six shots in his revolver, I had said yes, he could. all rounds were fired and I was thinking he was empty. I didn't think he would dump his moon clip and run across with his cylinder open.

He argued for 2 or 3 minutes and still received a procedural. He claimed he didn't know the rules. I know this is not true. He is normally a SO for me.

My thinking was what he did was no different than dropping a mag, putting it in your pocket while running across an opening then retreiving your reloads. I looked at this as not using cover.

Did I make the right call?

[scandog]

I only ad one other shooter get a procedural. He was shooting a 1911 9mm. He shot 2 rounds into T1-3, reloaded and left his mag, not empty, on the table. Then shot T4-6. He did the same thing with his second reload. He received two procedurals. I explained to him the retention rules for reloads. and he then turned around and did the same thing on another stage. On the second stage he tried to argue his mag was empty so it could be left behind. I explained he was not at slide lock and still had one in the pipe. He had to keep the mag.

Was I correct?

[Boom-Boom]

According to the rule book, the procedural would have been justified because he moved from one cover position to another w/ an open cylinder. However, I think this is better described as poor stage design. The stage forces shooters to leave a cover position to retrieve ammo required to finish the stage. If it was an auto shooter and he took make up shots and emptied his gun on T4-6, he would also have to leave cover with the gun out of battery (slidelocked) to retrieve ammo at st2 and he would've gotten a procedural as well.

I wouldn't have given him a procedural, because I would've done the same thing he did. When a gun's empty, it's just a paperweight, reload it as fast as you can even if you have to break cover. But I'd fix the stage design first.

[Boom-Boom]

For your second post, unfortunately, IDPA believes that you have to retain an empty mag if you still have one in the chamber, so you were correct. It is to dissuade round counting and round dumping.

[Joe D]

Scandog, as the rules are written, as dumb as this one is, he has to retain his empty mag. Maybe he should have fired another round onto a target. Nope can't do that he might be accused of dumping rounds.

I have asked IDPA HQ more than once about what is the correct, real world way to handle this exact same situation. In the real world I am going to leave that empty mag and stick a full one in. IDPA is supposed to be about real world situations.

[scandog]

I could have or maybe should have stated put all amo that you will use on the first table and not used the second table. This would have helped. I didn't think of that. 3 other shooters helped me set up and none of us saw this as an issue. Unfortunately in order to run 5 stages on our indoor range without taking up time changing stages, you are going to have to leave cover. I agree the non revolver shooters should have shot to slide lock and then had to run across with an empty gun. Fortunately I did not have anyone do that.

I will admit I was watching for this shooter to try and do something like this. I stated He has been talked to before. On stages where you use the ammo you have in your mag pouches, he has been reloading while moving across open areas of the range. I don't give very many procedurals and will normally try to warn someone if they leave a mag behind or only shoot 2 shots on a target rather than the required 3. This guy knew what he was doing.

Thanks for your input.

[scandog]

Joe,

That was my take on this. It was a longer range shot, so we would not have given him a penalty for the extra shot. It was a brain fart on his part. I hate giving a penalty for that rule. The mag is empty, but you have to keep it. Not the best rule, but still a rule.

Thanks

[Boom-Boom]

It's tough being a stage designer/MD/SO and try to please all the shooters. Someone will always get hacked at something you do. Keep up the good work and keep asking good questions like the ones above.

Also when designing stages, try to figure out how a SSR/CDP/SSP/ESP shooter would do it. Then figure out how a NV/MM/SS/EX/MA would shoot it. People will interpret a stage differently depending on their skill level and equipment.

Most of the stages I design are for revo shooters since it's easier for auto shooters to accomodate than it is for revo shooters.

[Bill Nesbitt]

The 1911 shooter deserved the penalties.

The revolver shooter probably didn't gain that much by dumping his moon clip before getting to cover. At the Nationals one year I had a situation where I had to shoot six rounds seated in a chair in the open then move to cover and shoot six more from around cover. I asked and got permission to start my reload while moving to cover because my revolver was empty. Your situation was similar in that the shooter had to move without cover to finish. Tough call. I probably wouldn't have given a penalty this time. It sounds like you will have plenty of opportunities to give him penalties in the future.

It's tough to design interesting stages and plan for every possible thing. Probably putting all ammo at st1 would have solved the problem.

Bill

[scandog]

Bill,

Looking back, you are probably correct. He didn't realy gain anything. The problem is the shooter in question has been warned several times about relaoding while not using cover. I was probably a little quick to give him the penalty. I think it was more I was tired of a shooter trying to take advantage of an SO who doesn't like to give penalties.

I am sitting here thinking about it and he had just made the SO who starting running the group so mad she wouldn't go back into the range. I walked in and he did this.

I probably did make the wrong call. I just looked at the scores and it would not have changed anything. He was the only SSR EX shooting.

[Bill Nesbitt]

scandog,

Sometimes you can make a shooter mad enough so they don't come back and it is a gain for the club.

Bill

[scandog]

Bill,

This shooter isn't going anywhere. He is a club member and one of the guys that helps me set up and he is also the main SO for most of my winter matches. That said, he id one of the worst for trying to get away with things and the first to hand out penalties for those he catches.

When I started this, I was just looking to see if what he did was legal. I guess it may have been. Looking back at it now, I may have given it to him as much to put him in his place as anything. Probably not the correct thing to do, but he needs to play by the same rules he holds everyone else to and he needs to stop giving my other SOs a hard time.

I am looking to step down as MD and he may be taking over. Maybe by then there will be other volunteers.

Thanks again for all your replies. I should have set the stage up differently.

[banjobart]

Scan,

I keep a rubber hammer close at hand at my club. If those bastards try that shit on me, I just give 'em a swift whack on the forehead.

You gotta put the fear of God in the shooters. Take control of the range.

You will never make any friends as MD, so give 'em Hell, Harry, you have nothing to lose.

Seriously, what I do is look them straight in the eye intensely when they argue their point and try to squirm out of a procedural they know they earned. I listen patiently and once they are out of wind I say;

"Don't be that way!

One procedural!

Clear the range!

Next shooter!"

He (of course, I do not know of whom you speak) tried that crap on me once, and I let it slide as I was in "fellow shooter" role at the moment. I did privately notify him before my next match that there are only two legal reloads in IDPA ;

1) Slide-lock

and

2) Retention.

FROM BEHIND COVER.

It is as simpe as that!!!

If it ain't one of them , then it's procedural!

Bart, out.

[Larrys1911]

OK maybe I dont understand what you are saying here but here goes.

What were you doing leaving cover to engage tgts on the other side at all.

From the looks of the stage you were in view of three tgts while moving across the center.

The problem with a PE for a Wheelgun when you make them do stuff like this is they are holding an empty gun Which is a BRICK. Whats the difference between an empty gun and one being reloaded, both in the open? One guy is smarter than the other

Bill that was my stage at the 2002 nats and the BRT shooters had the fastest time for it because of being able to reload while moving to cover, It does help on occasion.

IMO you should have, or could have, changed the center tgts to be engaged on the move or from the side you started on and none of that would have happened.

If its a straight forward stage you should have very few, if any PEs regardless what they do!

IMO he should have reloaded before he left cover, and it was NOT OK to move into the open with an open gun being reloaded or empty.

Larry P

[scandog]

Larry,

I had the shooters engage the targets in the middle through the door first. That way they could open the door before they had the gun int their hand. This was a problem at a previous match. Shooters kept sweeping the hand when opening the door.

I had them shoot center, left, then right. They did have to move across the open center. I only had one shooter get a procedural on the stage. No other shooter, ESP, SSP, CDP or SSR had a problem. Again, I should have had everyone reload before moving to the right, but I didn't figure anyone would do what he did, and no one else did.

I talked about it with another SO and we thought dumping the empty moon clip was the same as pulling a loaded mag and putting it in your pocket while moving from wall to wall. Both have you starting a reload at cover, moving across open area and finishing behind cover. As it was not legal for the pistol shooter, I didn't see how it was legal for a revolver. As he was only shooting against other revolver shooters and I didn't let any of them do this, I guess at least I was fair.

Bart,

Can I barrow your hammer?

[Johnny Van Etta]

Scandog,

If I read your course description correctly, the revolver shooter had engage the first three targets through the window with 2 rounds each, resulting in an empty weapon. He then reloaded from the only other available ammo on that side of the doorway, engaged the next three targets through the doorway, resulting in an empty weapon. The only available ammo left on the scenario was then on the right side of the doorway.

How could you penalize the shooter for crossing past the doorway with an empty weapon due to this course design? If your penalty was for beginning the reload while crossing through the open doorway, there is no description of when a reload begins, in either the LGB or the old LRB. Good sense would tell you in this situation to begin the reload as soon as you run dry.

If you think about it, what difference in value is a revolver with 6 empties in it vs. one which the empties have been ejected? You still have a weapon which you can not defend yourself with.

I would not have penalized the revolver shooter on this course of fire for beginning the reload while crossing past the open doorway. He did exactly what I would have done given the same circumstances.

Besides that, thanks for serving our sport as MD, SO, and participant. Don't let this stuff get you down, you'll never make 'em all happy all the time.

JVE

[Larrys1911]

First, a tip on doors. Generally its better to have people open it with their strong hand and then they dont sweep their off hand...

IE On signal open door with stronghand and engage.....

OK I figured I got something screwed up on that stage.

My only problem then would be that you told him he could move across an open area with an unloaded gun.

Either there is something pressing enough that the speed of reloading on the move and the danger are outweighed by your need to get there or there is no reason to leave cover with an unloaded gun...

I allways get a kick out of those; your wife and or kids/loved ones are at the other end of the house and you are in fear for thier lives ............

Stop...... someone tell me the rules for IDPA again cause this just became IPSC to me!

Larry P

[scandog]

Guys,

The idea was you had just finished cleaning you gun ad after opening the door, you realise there are bad people outside the door. you step over to the table where your empty gun and amunition are. you load and acquire the threats through the door first. This as the shooters open the door before they have a gun in their hand. This eliminates the need to specify the hand required used to open the door.

On our indoor range there are times we have to have shooters move across open areas in order to keep the match moving and round count up without having every target require 4+ rounds. I should have given the revolver shooters an extra reload at the first table. I agree moving across open areas with an empty weapon is not a good Idea. That being said, this is a game not real life. The rules state cover when available needs to be used for reloads. My delema was with his use of or lack of use of cover.

I still like Barts idea. I just think a bigger hammer is needed.

[Larrys1911]

WEEEELLL look who the cat drug in.

Some guy that and blew us off for Jury Duty

GEESE, Jury Duty

Get your Priorities right would ya!

Larry P

[Johnny Van Etta]

Scandog,

First of all, I really appreciate your interest in getting this thing figured out.

I would have moved T-6 to the next shooting position, and then the shooter would have had to engage 2 targets at the doorway, move to the last shooting position, engage 4 targets with a minimum of 2 shots each, reload as appropriate.

The CDP shooters would have had to reload at the doorway, either first with a tac-load or at slide lock before finishing and moving to the last position, but the revolver problem would have been solved.

Larry,

Thanks for the spanking. I really did have jury duty which, according to what we understood late in the week, could have grounded us. Fortunately, we got it figured out. Unfortunately, I did not get to make the trip. I really missed the match, but more importantly I missed seeing my friends at CASA. I look forward to seeing you soon.

JVE

[scandog]

John,

That would have worked. If you look at stages long enough, someone will figure out a way to set it up for everyone. I like your idea.

Thanks again for the input.

[Johnny Van Etta]

Thanks Scandog,

I spend a lot of time on course of fire design. I will gladly help any way I can.

JVE

[scandog]

I don't thenk people understand what it is like designing stages. It is very easy to miss something, as I did, that can have a major effect on how the stage is run.

Thanks again. I like the Idea of changing the target placement.

[Larrys1911]

I don't thenk people understand what it is like designing stages. It is very easy to miss something, as I did, that can have a major effect on how the stage is run.

Thanks again. I like the Idea of changing the target placement.

Until you have DONE IT you just dont understand how much goes into it.

Larry P

[NEPAKevin]

I kind of look at CoF design as reverse engineered gaming.

When someone beats one of my stages, or even if it just doesn't run smoothly, etc. I don't get upset but rather look at it as a learning experience. Just like in shooting, if you blow a stage, when it's over, you move on and try to improve yourself from the experience.

I think that going to different ranges also helps me learn better ways to do things. I don't think anyone knows it all but some MDs have a lot of experience and by paying attention to what works or even what doesn't work for someone else allows me to bring good ideas back home.

Kevin