Improper Start Positions

[BDH]

The lesson that sticks with me most from the RO courses that I've taken (level 1 from Jay, level 2 from Perry) is that "the RO's main job is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire". If a shooter assumes what looks like a wrong ready position, I think it's only right for the RO to assist him through the stage by repeating the correct start position.

Turtle, I had the same instructors in the L1 and L2 courses, and you will get no argument from me on this! I just started this thread to see if maybe I was missing something since there was a comment made about sticking to range commands only, and not breaking concentration. So far, it seems like just about every response agrees that they would want the gentle reminder.

Troy, can I ask for a reshoot "if" an RO yells finger or muzzle while I'm shooting.

No, you cannot (although, I don't have my darn rulebook at work so I can't cite the rule). Maybe someone else can cite the rule number...

[Skywalker]

Troy, can I ask for a reshoot "if" an RO yells finger or muzzle while I'm shooting.

No, you cannot (although, I don't have my darn rulebook at work so I can't cite the rule). Maybe someone else can cite the rule number...

Here you are Sir: (from IPSC rulebook)

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

[BDH]

I wonder if USPSA has a totally different rulebook from IPSC regarding the start position issue.

Skywalker, I don't believe so. Also, I learned this lesson the hard way in a similer situation to short-round. The only difference was that I was the CRO (my first major match as a CRO, nervous as hell, I made the mistake once, but learned from it and will never do it again).

Anyway, competitor is not in correct position. RO runs him. Clears the range and assesses one Procedural for improper start position. The competitor rightly protests to me, and I uphold the call. The competitor then rightly requests the RM, who I call down to the stage. The Procedural goes away, and when I talked with the RM one on one, he told me the correct call was just never to start the competitor if they are not in the correct start position.

Simple enough, and that is the way I've handled this ever since.

[mactiger]

Flex, Brian, Sky--you are all correct, and that's how I read the rule as well. The option I mentioned has happened, however. I posted it for the benefit of competitors who might have had this happen to them. If it were me, I'd be protesting to whoever would listen. It's always good to learn from bad examples, don't you think?

The right thing to do, and the only thing to do per the rules, is to inform the competitor of the correct start position before proceeding. If you are doing your job as RO, there really isn't any other option.

Scooter, sorry, but no reshoot for getting a warning. See 8.6.1. I think that warnings are sometimes over used--an RO shouting "finger" throughout a course of fire is definitely out of position, or else he's yelling "finger" or "muzzle" when he should be shouting STOP. I know many competitors hate warnings for just that reason. I've heard them say: "either DQ me for being unsafe, or shut up while I shoot." Most of the times I've heard a warning it went something like: "Muzzle, Muzzle, Stop."

Bottom line: if the competitor isn't in the right start position, get him in it, and then start the course of fire. It's the right thing to do.

Troy

[Skywalker]

The right thing to do, and the only thing to do per the rules, is to inform the competitor of the correct start position before proceeding.  If you are doing your job as RO, there really isn't any other option.

...

Bottom line:  if the competitor isn't in the right start position, get him in it, and then start the course of fire.  It's the right thing to do.

That's my exact feeling: I agree 100%.

BTW, regarding the safety warnings to competitors: I've been taught that these are to be issued when the competitor is dangerously close to break the 180 (muzzle) or when he has his trigger finger very close to entering the trigger guard (finger), not when the offence has already taken place, and the RO wants to give a 2nd chance to the shooter.

In any case, I never use them since they could be easily misunderstood for some kind of unfair treatment.

Picture this: you're ROing a competitor, he's almost breaking the 180, you yell "muzzle" and he steers his gun into a safer direction; we have a happy competitor that wasn't DQed.

Now comes the second shooter: he does the very same as the 1st one, but for any reason you can think of, you don't issue any safety warning: the competitor breaks the 180 and gets DQed; we have a definitely p@##*d off competitor that will constantly bitch at us for coaching the previous one and f...ing himself.

This the situation I'd try to avoid when officiating: I want to be consistent (as much as I can) with all competitors.

[short_round]

Had I been in your shoes, I'd have fought teeth and nails up to the arb. committee to get a re-shoot.

I realize now that I should have done that. If it happens again I will. It was just a learning experience now.

I want to be consistent (as much as I can) with all competitors.

Exactly. As RO's we all should to try to be consistent with each other too. I'm glad that we are able to have these discussions.

Scooter, sorry, but no reshoot for getting a warning.

This should probably be another thread, but I am almost totally with Skywalker here because I rarely use the warnings. It's kind of wierd because in my RO class Jay Worden said you can see a DQ before it happens. It makes me think that I should be able to issue a warning to stop it, but it happens so fast. The one time I had DQ somebody, as soon as I saw that he was about to do, I was more focused on staying out of the way and figuring out how to make the range "safe" again rather than giving a warning.

Let us keep in mind that being "shooter friendly" is a great thing that we should all try to be as RO's, but safety comes first always. When I am the shooter I personally believe that safety is more my responsibility than the RO. I am the one with the loaded gun not the RO.

[BDH]

I rarely use the warnings.  It's kind of weird because in my RO class Jay Worden said you can see a DQ before it happens.  It makes me think that I should be able to issue a warning to stop it, but it happens so fast.  The one time I had DQ somebody, as soon as I saw that he was about to do, I was more focused on staying out of the way and figuring out how to make the range "safe" again rather than giving a warning.

Agreed. In fact, the couple of times I got caught in bad situations with shooters, I was so concerned about getting the hell out of the way that I forgot my range commands..... Instead of STOP...... I let out WHOA, while I was trying to get out of the way!

I think that most of the major match RO's have adopted a policy of not calling 'finger'. The issue is that it is very hard to see, and the other piece of this is that if a shooter has a tendency to have his finger on the trigger when it should not be, the gun will eventually go BOOM, and then there is no doubt.

[ivanhu]

I prefer that the RO tell me if I'm not in the correct position to begin.

OK, lemme throw my 0.2 worth in.

As an RO, if the shooter's hand is not on the gun, and he stays still for a while (but not in the correct position), I simply tell him what the correct position was.

As a shooter, I'd expect the same.

And no, it won't break my concentration, and it won't break the concentration of the experienced shooter either. If I'd feel that it did, then - since I'm still in the "make ready" state - I'd restart my preparation, but this time would finish in the correct position. IMHO, the experienced shooter would do the same.

Someone suggested that the RO should reissue the "make ready" command. IMHO, it isn't necessary, the shooter is after the make ready command already, he is free to make ready, as a matter of fact, he is expected to make ready, so reissuing the command is just pointless.

[Tman33_99]

I am one that if the shooter is in what looks like "some" ready condition for a while, but not in "the" ready condition, I will usually say something to like "hands are ______" or "feet are _____".

Personnally when I am on the line, It doesn't bother me, and I try to say it calmly and not too loud when I am the RO, to make the distraction as minimal as possible and only when I am sure the shooter is not moving the correct ready position.

I find it works best when the shooter, stays in a postion that is obviously "not" ready. For me this is usually with my hand on my gun, or only one hand above my shoulder, etc. This makes it pretty clear to the RO, that I am "not" ready.

Just my 2 cents.

tman