How are classification brackets set?

[InTheBlack]

The LGB says: "Classifications will be as follows: Master 85 - 100%, Expert 70 - 84.9% ...."

Percent of WHAT???  Is the bracket a percentage of the BEST SCORES or NUMBER OF PERSONS TAKING THE CLASSIFIER?

Exactly how often are the brackets reviewed & revised?

[tightloop]

What is LGB, and if you would go into a little more detail so we can understand .

[Duane Thomas]

Little Green Book.

I asked them that question at IDPA High Command just after the sport was created - it was part of my research for an article on IDPA. The answer was that, when setting the classifier standards, they got a bunch of people they considered should be able to shoot Master scores and had them fire the classifier. Based on their scores, they figured that out as 100 %. It never gets updated.

[tightloop]

Why were the first ones red?

[InTheBlack]

>they got a bunch of people they considered should be able to >shoot Master scores and had them fire the classifier. Based >on their scores, they figured that out as 100 %. It    never >gets updated.

Not really a precise explanation! I would guess these people all shot perfect hits, though.

[Duane Thomas]

Actually it is a precise explanation. It's just not a precise system.

[DblTap]

I betting "Master" was figured based on what Bill Wilson shot. What ya wanna bet?

[Mayonaise]

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Quote: from DblTap on 7:04 am on Sep. 12, 2002

I betting "Master" was figured based on what Bill Wilson shot. What ya wanna bet?

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Doubtful.  

[Duane Thomas]

I interviewed Bill Wilson for an article on IDPA shortly after the sport was created. Bill mentioned his highest score to date on the classifier in SSP was around 83 with a Beretta 92FS. Bear in mind this was five years ago, I would not exactly be shocked to learn he's well down into the 70s these days. Since Master in SSP is 98.82, I kinda doubt the standard for Master was figured based on what Bill Wilson can shoot. There'd be a lot fewer IDPA Masters if that were the case.

[tightloop]

I don't know Duane, Bill isn't tearing it up now like he did 2 or 3 yrs ago.  I think that his participation and shooting, now is limited compared to what it was when he was promoting this thing and as you know, use it or loose it!

I'm not saying that he isn't faster than the Master times on the classifier, but I doubt if he can go out and shoot it cold in the 70's.  If the truth is known, I don't think there are 20 people nation wide that can do that, and most of those are very well known, guys like TGO, Jarrett, Langdon, Sevigny, Burkett, Middlebrooks, Ron Avery and least we forget, Benos.  There may be some forum members who can get pretty low, but technique plays little or no part in the  IDPA classifier on the first two stages, there is very little movement.  Stage three is where all the great shooters pull away and those I mentioned would as well, but yu can only draw the pistol so fast and you don't make up much time with two transitions.

It  would be interesting to get Langdon or someone who has won the IDPA Nationals to give us a peek into the speed issue, or maybe Benos could convince TGO to post his thoughts on this.  I would also like to hear from Bill Nesbitt, who is a 3 gun Master and National Senior Champ on his times.  

Benos doesn't like to tell us his own capabilities on stuff like this, but it would be interesting if he would.

David Sevigny has shot it faster than anyone I have heard of and he was in the high 60's.  What did you do it in, Duane?

[Bill]

That's "former" National senior champ. We'll see what I can do this year with a revolver.

My best times so far are: SSP; 95.xx, SSR; 94.xx, ESP; 84.xx and worst CDP 94.xx. This is on race day at a match. I have beat some of these times in practice but I don't count that. What can you do on demand at a match where people are watching. Those are all master scores except for CDP. After shooting a revolver and Glock for a while I can't master that 1911 trigger.

An interesting note. I recently started shooting USPSA again after having only IDPA clubs nearby. I was A in Open and Limited when I quit shooting USPSA. At one time I was very close to making Master in USPSA. I recently shot a USPSA special classifier where you shoot 4 stages on the same day, and made B class in Production (very close to A-Class) and B in revolver.  I have no idea what this means. Just thought it was interesting.

The secret to the IDPA classifier is dropping no or very few points on the first 2 stages and then doing the same on stage 3. Many people can shoot fast at close targets but when the shots are past 10 yards or so then accuracy is very important.

Bill Nesbitt

[tightloop]

Bill

Thanks for giving us older guys some incentive.  I am sure you will do very well indeed with the wheel gun, maybe Alex Zimmerman will crash... but having seen him shoot, probably not.

I too am a 3 gun Master, qualified CDP at 89+ and have since done 83+; ESP 87+ to qualify and have done 82+ since, SSP was 90+ to qualify and after I made it, put the Glock in the vault.  Super lucky to make it in SSP.   No plans to shoot revolver.

I simply cannot imagine someone shooting the classifier in 60+ seconds.  Really hard to think of anyone doing it in less than 75 who is not a pro shooter.  That is why I wondered aloud about all the others out there.  Do you think it is possible for a person who holds a real job in the day to shoot it in 75+/-, without warming up first.  I have my doubts, but was just wondering.

I have seen some guys in this state who can really burn but not in the 75 sec class, how about in your neck of the woods?

[Flexmoney]

Yeah BILL,,, how 'bout your neck of the woods?  You get to rub shoulders with some good IDPA shooters, right?

BILL, is there a difference between the SSR & SSP classifier?  Or do you just shoot the wheel gun faster than the Glock?  (are reloads a factor in the IDPA classifier?)

[Bill]

I have used the IDPA classifier as a practice tool since I started IDPA. I shoot one string (not stage) then I record the time, score & paste. Then shoot the rest of the match the same way. I shoot the entire 90 round match straight through with no breaks. I also kept a record, by stages, of what I did at matches when the classifier is shot. I have kept a record of this over the years. I can measure my improvement this way. I don't do it a lot but may shoot the classifier in practice 10 to 20 times a year. Because I have this record I can "guess" what better shooters than I might do. I used the SWAG method.

Stage One

Strings 1, 2 & 3: 1.8 seconds each

String 4: 3.5 sec

String 5: 2.5 sec

String 6: 5.0??

String 7: 3.5 sec

TOTAL: 18.9

Stage 2

String 1: 3.0

String 2: 2.6

String 3: 7.0

String 4: 4.0

TOTAL: 16.6

Stage 3

String 1: 9.0

String 2: 12.0

String 3: 5.0

TOTAL: 26

GRAND TOTAL: 62.50

This is with no points down, but none of these times are out of line for the very best shooters. I think the best can do this very few points down, so yes, scores below 70 are possible in my opinion. The classifier takes a lot of concentration for a long period of time. If you shoot the entire 90 rounds match straight through it will take 10 or 15 minutes to complete. That is a long time for shooters who are used to shooting a 5 to 25 second stage then taking a several minute break until called to shoot the next stage. It is not an easy test. What do the rest of you think?

Bill Nesbitt

[Bill]

Flex,

Something about a couple of missed head shots with the Glock.

The IDPA classifier is sort of revolver neutral. Everybody shoots the same stages. Autos have 2 slide lock reloads to revolvers 2 speed loads on stages 1 & 2. Autos have 2 tac/retention loads to revolvers 2 speedloads on stage 3. It sort of evens out.

Bill Nesbitt

[Jake Di Vita]

I think I need to go out and practice....

[InTheBlack]

For me I think the Classifier would be easier if the long shots were taken first.  Transitioning from speed to bullseye once I'm pumped up is hard.  Bullseye first would be a nice warmup for the speed part.

Bill, cruise on over to my other thread on Classifier Matrix Analysis and give your opinions of the time required for each of the various elements I identified, and which are the hardest parts to improve

[tightloop]

thanks for the time and the info, Bill.  It still is hard to believe a 63 sec classifier.  They keep pushing the bar, don't they?

Your idea on the classifier is similar to mine.  I always tried to shoot the first stage in 23 +/- down 4, stage two in 21 +/ down 4 and stage three in 26+/_down 10, that would be a 75 sec match, but I have never quite made my goals .  Low 80's is the best I can do.  You are correct that the nature of the classifier places lots of demands on yu for a longer period than yu usually have when you shoot a stage in a match.  Hard to concentrate like you need to for 15 - 20 minutes, and as yu say it is harder to do on race day than in practice.

Got to go dry fire, if you are not the lead dog, the scenery never changes.  Thanks

[marmot452]

tightloop: why "no plans to shoot revolver"?  Just curious.  

You just need to watch Bill Nesbitt shoot the wheelgun - that's all the inspiration you'll need.

[tightloop]

I have a case of African Fever, went on my first safari in July this year and want to go again next year, but if I spend that $$ on all revolver related stuff, I can't go, unless I hit the lottery.  On top of that, Bill gave indication that his revolver shooting had a negative influence on his 1911 shoting ability.  since both my CDP and ESP guns are 1911, I don't want to put in the time learning the revolver at the expense of shooting poorly with my other pistols.  I gave the Glock enough time to classify with it, and then it went into the vault.  Being a 4 gun Master doesn't hold any mistique for me, I would rather go to Africa and hunt Kudu or Lion or Cape Buffalo.

[FlashG]

I recently took an Advance Competition Class from Langdon.  The subject of classifications and the possible need for a new higher classificaiton came up.  During the discussion, Langdon mentioned that he shoots the classifier consistantly in the mid to low 60's.  

[miyamoto]

hi folks.

the classifier i think at times is a good test, but at other times i think if you do it too much you can get grooved into it to the point where it might not be indicative of everall match skill.

i am not trying to boast, i offer my own experience with the utmost humbleness, but i did it cold right at 70 seconds. then did another right after it at 67 seconds.

yes, i have a full time job...so does david sevigny.

i have rob leatham on tape doing a (sloppy for him) 73 second run. does this mean i am better?

of course not. i backed off doing it. i only do the classifier maybe five times per year.

i am shooting quite a bit, but don't want to get into

doing the classifier to the point where it is something ingrained and automatic. that is not match skill.

my match times are not as wonderful to be sure.

i sometimes think idpa should have many different classifier stages, or standards that would be unofficial. just skills tests to use as comparisons similar to uspsa.

keeping the classifier at the same time for that purpose.

as far as bills "swag" method is concerned.

he is rather close on everything.

at stage 3 i average 10sec. on string one, 11 on string 2.

4 sec on string 3.

average 7 dropped points at that stage.

most of my times for stage 1 and 2 are just slightly faster than what bill has listed as "swag", but to my detriment i drop a couple of points on these two stages.

usually never on stage 1.

usually moving on stage 2, but i am well under 3 seconds there on strings one and two.

this is very near what the best might be capable of.

i have a ways to go to get what i am after.

again, not bragging, but this is an interesting post as i don't think it is indicative of what the best are capable of actually.

i will be doing nationals this year on squad five along with my girlfriend/training partner sara d. (last years high lady at idpa nats.)

so we look forward to meeting anyone of you fellow forumites out there. it is going to be fun.

good shooting,

will s.

(Edited by miyamoto at 11:11 am on Sep. 19, 2002)

[tightloop]

Smoking Times

Good Luck at the nat'ls

[Bill]

Going back to tightloop's question about non pro shooters doing 60 on the classifier. All the Pros had a day job at first and had to prove they were good enough to be sponsored.

I think there are several things that affect how well we can shoot. First I think you need to have a shooting range nearby that you can use however and when ever you need to practice.  A timer is needed. Then practice 2 or 3 times a week for 2 to 300 rounds. Dry fire a little bit and any working person can be a top shooter. I think the will to do better is more important than being sponsored.

There are lot of people shooting the classifier in the 60's and 70's. That is a long way from 98 in SSP. Maybe we do need a Grand Master class.

[Bill]

InTheBlack,

I checked your matrix thread. That is similar to how I figured out I could shoot master in SSR. I figured my times for each string from my practice sessions. You really need your own timer to find out how fast you can shoot different skills.

Some of the clubs where I shoot will have the classifier for the monthly match. They set the 3 stages up in 3 different bays and you can start on any stage.

Bill Nesbitt