witness 10mm ?

[longrangedog]

picked up a 10mm steel witness to help a bud heading out it has been fired 12 times (i got the rest of box of 20) was told they are bad about cracking frames, any thing i can do to prevent this, was going to call eaa but was told they are not much help,thanks for any help,

[Nealio]

They only crack the slide when they are under sprung. You can't get a stuff enough recoil spring for them, however, so you need to run a 2-stage spring setup if you want to keep it from getting beat to hell and cracking. I was sering some very slight peening on mine, then I got a Sprinco Recoil reduce, which is a 2-stage spring setup on the guide rod. It looks fine after over 1000 HOT hand loads.

[Steve4102]

Depends on what you have. A new and unimproved round top slide in the steel wonder, and older model with the square slide or the Elite Match.

I purchased a new Compact Steel Wonder in 40 S&W with the new unimproved round top slide last fall. With less than 300 rounds through it the slide cracked. Sent it back to EAA along with a check for $20 to pay for return shipping, that's right you have to pay for shipping both ways. They slapped on a new unimproved round top slide and sent it back. Another 300+ rounds and the slide cracked again. Sent it back again on my dime and all they did was slap on a new slide. Third slide and a few hundred rounds later and the slide cracked again(that's 3), big surprise. This time they issued me a call tag and paid for shipping both ways. They slapped on a new slide, but this time it was an old style square top slide. Looks like this now.

[Nealio]

Oh yeah I should have mentioned I have a Match, not the new rounded slide. As Steve4102 said the rounded ones IMHO are much weaker and prone to cracking

[ripplerAdder]

Oh yeah I should have mentioned I have a Match, not the new rounded slide. As Steve4102 said the rounded ones IMHO are much weaker and prone to cracking

The match is a beast get a strong wolff spring though. They sell a calibration pack for like 24.00 that has 16 up to 22# and three extra power firing pin springs. I've heard that the cracked slide's were all part of a bad lot with casting flaws which have been rectified now but I haven't had that confirmed.

[Nealio]

Oh yeah I should have mentioned I have a Match, not the new rounded slide. As Steve4102 said the rounded ones IMHO are much weaker and prone to cracking

The match is a beast get a strong wolff spring though. They sell a calibration pack for like 24.00 that has 16 up to 22# and three extra power firing pin springs. I've heard that the cracked slide's were all part of a bad lot with casting flaws which have been rectified now but I haven't had that confirmed.

You need the stiffest spring you can buy, so the other ones would just go in your spare parts bin. The only way I've seen to get the 10mm Witness to stop peening where the guide rod seats is to get the Sprinco recoil reducer.

[gcp]

Hi guys, I am new to this forum.

I am awaiting on my new 10mm Match to arrive, probably Friday or Saturday, but the cracking I am reading in this thread concerns me a bit. To get better educated, which exact Wolf springs would you recommend that I replace in order to make this new pistol of mine a great performer? Also, what is it and where can I purchase the Sprinco recoil reducer? I will be reloading my own ammo mostly for hunting & self defense but I'll be doing a fair bit of plinking to get used to shooting it so your expert inputs will be greatly appreciated.

My questions are related but I don't mean to highjack the OP so we can always start a new thread if warranted.

Thanks,

gcp

Edited February 3, 2011 by gcp

[Nealio]

I am awaiting on my new 10mm Match to arrive, probably Friday or Saturday, but the cracking I am reading in this thread concerns me a bit. To get better educated, which exact Wolf springs would you recommend that I replace in order to make this new pistol of mine a great performer? Also, what is it and where can I purchase the Sprinco recoil reducer? I will be reloading my own ammo mostly for hunting & self defense but I'll be doing a fair bit of plinking to get used to shooting it so your expert inputs will be greatly appreciated.

I was concerned too, but you should be fine if you do these 2 things:

Get the 20# longslide recoil spring from Wolff (part# 49820). I know this sounds ridiculous, but I emailed Wolff and they told me the 22# compact spring is the same as the 20# longslide spring but its stiffer because its compressed more. That is NOT how you measure a spring. I know some people are saying to run the 22# compact spring, but its the same as the 20# longslide according to Wolff.

Get a Sprinco "recoil reducer". Its a 2 stage guide rod that will slow the slide down in the last 1/2 of the stroke. It keeps the slide from hitting the frame even with the hottest loads. I run a 155gr @ 1380fps and a 180gr @ 1200+ out of mine and since I put the Sprinco in, I haven't seen any peening or the slide hitting.

The Springco can be found here: http://www.sprinco.com/recoil.html. You can email the guy and ask him questions, he was very helpful a few years ago when I got mine.

So I tried to make some type of 2 stage spring system myself. I tried inner/outer spring pairs, linearly stacked springs, spacers (to increase the pre-load on the spring), etc.

Some of them helped the recoil, but then the slide would slam closed so hard I was worried I would be cracking slide pins. Once I got the Sprinco recoil reducer everything was MUCH better.

Also if you like to save your brass (and most 10mm'ers do) you will probably need to shorten the ejector pin by about 50%. I was unable to keep my 10mm from tossing brass 30+ feet even with the Sprinco device in there. So after talked with guys on 10mmTalk.com, they suggested shortening the ejector pin. I know it sounds crazy but that's the only way I can keep my brass in the same zip code..

PM me if you want more info.

- Nealio

Edited February 3, 2011 by Nealio

[Steve4102]

I've heard that the cracked slide's were all part of a bad lot with casting flaws which have been rectified now but I haven't had that confirmed

I've read this as well, but I'm not convinced this is the case. I cracked three slides in a matter of weeks. If the problem was a bad lot then they are still installing that bad lot on their guns as of Dec 2010. The only way they could stop my slide from cracking was to replace it with the old style square slide. Doesn't seem like a casting issue to me.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Steve4102

[Gary1911A1]

Here's another link for Sprinco: http://www.sprinco.com/recoil.html After installing mine I found there was torque at the end of the slide cycle, but it did seem to work. Like other here I took an old 1911 recoil spring, cut it very short, 3 coils and placed it over the Wolf spring near the guild rod and that seem to help too.

[gcp]

Nealio, thank you sir for your precise input, I will PM you. But I am perplexed! I just bought a new pistol from Tanfoglio that is supposed to function properly as delivered directly from the factory and yet I must spend additional $, which waters down the supposed good Tanfoglio deal, to make it properly function? And after I do all that if it still somehow is damaged what will that do to the warranty? All of this just does not seem right to me.

I've owned a 9mm Tanfoglio since November of 2001 and it's been simply a flawless pistol, even though I've not shot it much the last 5 or so years. It's reliable, accurate, and fits me to a T so I can't imagine that 10 years later Tanfoglio's gone in the wrong direction with their 10mm match.

Here's the same pistol with the grips I made for it when I first got it using spalted maple wood, I'll probably have to make a matching set for the new Match (pun intended)

Edited February 4, 2011 by gcp

[heckle]

Nealio, thank you sir for your precise input, I will PM you. But I am perplexed! I just bought a new pistol from Tanfoglio that is supposed to function properly as delivered directly from the factory and yet I must spend additional $, which waters down the supposed good Tanfoglio deal, to make it properly function? And after I do all that if it still somehow is damaged what will that do to the warranty? All of this just does not seem right to me.

I've owned a 9mm Tanfoglio since November of 2001 and it's been simply a flawless pistol, even though I've not shot it much the last 5 or so years. It's reliable, accurate, and fits me to a T so I can't imagine that 10 years later Tanfoglio's gone in the wrong direction with their 10mm match.

Here's how I would look at it, there are only a handfull of companies producing a 10mm (mainly for liability and reliability reasons), youve purchased a fairly inexpensive 10mm and want it to last, spend the extra couple $ and a little time to ensure that happens. Don't think of it as Tanfoglio's aren't what they use to be, your running a much hotter load then a 9mm. If anything happens install "all" the factory parts and send it back for warranty, you shouldn't have any problems.

[gcp]

The way I choose to look at it is I purchased a new pistol that should be properly designed and build, no matter the caliber or taxing load, as long as the load remains within factory specifications. Now if the 10mm is inherently problematic then Tanfoglio should not produce or sell it. Which makes me think, maybe those that have cracking slides choose to use extremely hot rounds? Just thinking out loud here so please don't take it as being accusatory, that's not my intent!

As for replacing the stock parts and then sending it back wouldn't that be dishonest? How would I know whether its defective Tanfoglio materials that caused the issue rather than my wrong choice of aftermarket parts? There has to be a better answer guys, that's why companies hire engineers and professionals to design and build their products rather than depend on their buyers to execute the necessary mods to make their products function properly. Am I missing something here?

Edited February 4, 2011 by gcp

[Skydiver]

The way I choose to look at it is I purchased a new pistol that should be properly designed and build, no matter the caliber or taxing load, as long as the load remains within factory specifications. Now if the 10mm is inherently problematic then Tanfoglio should not produce or sell it. Which makes me think, maybe those that have cracking slides choose to use extremely hot rounds? Just thinking out loud here so please don't take it as being accusatory, that's not my intent!

As for replacing the stock parts and then sending it back wouldn't that be dishonest? How would I know whether its defective Tanfoglio materials that caused the issue rather than my wrong choice of aftermarket parts? There has to be a better answer guys, that's why companies hire engineers and professionals to design and build their products rather than depend on their buyers to execute the necessary mods to make their products function properly. Am I missing something here?

If you look at that way, then:

- CZ's shouldn't have slide stop pins that break even with factory 9mm loads

- Bomar sights shouldn't lose their screws

- 1911 extractors should last as long as the gun does

- yokes on revolvers should not bend

- barrels should never wear out

[gcp]

Skydriver, exactly! Now there's a finite limit to ALL parts! As we know eventually everything wears down but that's not what I'm talking about at all. I am talking about implementation of proper design, proper selection of materials, proper fabrication processes, and quality control that weeds out pistols that don't meet recognized ISO and/or other applicable industry standards.

I will continue to study, collect data from recognize Tanfoglio experts, and hope that my new Match holds up. If not it'll go back for a full refund rather than repairs as slides should not crack! Of course I am not against fine tuning this pistol if it needs it.

I've been doing a bit more searching & reading on the subject and here's what I found. Hope you find this to be interesting info, as I have: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=22534.0;wap2

I believe I'll shoot mine stock to begin with, with no more than warm reloads, and see what the result will be. Nealio, the second part of this thread is interesting in that this method also reduces ejection distance but in a different manner than what you've described.

Edited February 4, 2011 by gcp

[Nealio]

So here is my take on the whole 10mm situation:

The 10mm round is very hard on guns. In fact even the first .40 S&W guns had issues because they were built on 9mm frames. Add to that that almost all "factory" ammo for 10mm is watered down (except for Double Tap) so if they sprung it correctly it may not function reliably with factory ammo. So most companies stay away from the 10mm round because its a hard problem to solve.

The 10mm has such a wide range of loads you can load for it its hard to target what the end owner is going to run. Granted Tanfoglio should have targeted handloaders who shoot hot loads because that seems like the majority of the owners. Plus if you look at how much a Dan Wesson or a Colt Delta Elite costs for a single stack 10mm the Tanfoglio with all the extras I listed is still way cheaper. And you get a double stack pistol.

Also, everyone is assuming that nobody has problems with the other 10mm pistols out there. The ONLY one I think that was flawless from the factory and was built to handle hot loads from the get go is the S&W 10XX series. Those are amazing pistols. But they are single stack, and no longer in production.

I paid $500 for my 10mm, and then the springs and the Sprinco rod adds another $100 so that's $600 for a nice, all steel 10mm. I've ran 1000 rounds of max load rounds through mine and its still tight and shoots amazingly accurate. Honestly $600 for a double stack 10mm that shoots this good is a steal. The only guns I'd consider "comparable" are all over $1000.

- Nealio

[Nealio]

Skydriver, exactly! Now there's a finite limit to ALL parts! As we know eventually everything wears down but that's not what I'm talking about at all. I am talking about implementation of proper design, proper selection of materials, proper fabrication processes, and quality control that weeds out pistols that don't meet recognized ISO and/or other applicable industry standards.

I will continue to study, collect data from recognize Tanfoglio experts, and hope that my new Match holds up. If not it'll go back for a full refund rather than repairs as slides should not crack! Of course I am not against fine tuning this pistol if it needs it.

I've been doing a bit more searching & reading on the subject and here's what I found. Hope you find this to be interesting info, as I have: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=22534.0;wap2

I believe I'll shoot mine stock to begin with, with no more than warm reloads, and see what the result will be. Nealio, the second part of this thread is interesting in that this method also reduces ejection distance but in a different manner than what you've described.

So in response to the first part of your question and the first part of the thread you referenced:

I don't think the materials or engineering is lacking on the Witness 10mm Match in any way, EXCEPT for the spring. It needs something like a 24# progressive spring. That is the only issue. Any gun is going to crack its slide if its hitting the frame. However the design of the rounded slides may be suspect on those guns. I asked every person on 10mm talk who had a cracked Tanfoglio slide if they ran the stock spring and they all said yes. Granted that's just a handful of people, but to me it points to what I think the real culprit is.

So as far as the springs go, that "winding a 1911 spring into the Tanfoglio spring" is a horrible idea. I tried it. All it did was make the spring bind in the last part of the stroke, but it put shock load on the guide rod (which I will admit Tanfoglio needs to tighten the specs on, so you should either get a Henning or a Sprinco). I noticed it was peening where the guide rod seated, which is the other main issue. I worked on trying to make something so I wouldn't have to buy the Sprinco rod for 4 months. I bought handfuls of springs for all kinds of pistols but I could never get the right combination. Or like I said, if I could stop the slide battering it was putting too much force on the slide stop pin when it would slam shut, and that pin already takes a lot of force.

So I know where you are coming from. I was in denial for 6 months and the 10mm guys told me the same thing I'm telling you..

Now that I got the Springco everything is a lot better. The only thing I think I'm going to do different is mess with some shims to engage the 2nd stage on that Sprinco a little sooner so my brass stays within 10 feet of me..

[rockhunter]

Educate me please.

I haven't seen anyone post a report of a cracked slide with a Witness Elite Match in any caliber (did I miss someone reporting one?)

Most of the reports of a cracked slide that I have seen were with Witness steel frame pistols in 40 S&W or 10mm with the Wonder finish and in the newer rounded slide profile.

[Steve4102]

Educate me please.

I haven't seen anyone post a report of a cracked slide with a Witness Elite Match in any caliber (did I miss someone reporting one?)

Most of the reports of a cracked slide that I have seen were with Witness steel frame pistols in 40 S&W or 10mm with the Wonder finish and in the newer rounded slide profile.

Here is one.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=106314