Starting Starting Strength

[js82]

To be honest I don't remember how long I did it for or when exactly I did it. It was for maybe about half a year to a year and it was during my 2nd year of training. Being that it was my 2nd year I didn't make as much gains anymore. I gained maybe 10 pounds? Before writing off what I've read though I think you should look at the article that Rippetoe wrote here: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/who_wants_to_be_a_novice_you_do&cr=

The reason I can't do squats properly is because I don't have the flexibility. It's a common problem.

You're absolutely right that I'm not eating enough though. I'm definitely underweight. For me the problem is time. I can't find time to eat while I'm at work.

Wow, 1.5gr/lb? The most I drank before was less than 1gr/lb. Right now I just drink 3 servings (24g) a day. Do we really need 2gr/lb? That seems like a whole lot considering that we also get a lot of protein from our normal diet.

Gotta agree that there's nothing wrong with barbell exercises like deadlifts. And I'll add that I'm not fond of machines in general at all. For those who are injured machines are good, but those who aren't injured should stick mostly to free weights.

[Aglifter]

Where's the flexibility problem? I use a yoke to squat now, to avoid irritating my neck*, that or a "bent bar" can eliminate the shoulder and wrist discomfort people often have.

if its perceived as a flexibility problem in the knees or hips, its more frequently a technique problem. (I did my first squats w.o. a weight, sitting onto a box, to get used to sitting back and down)

However, sumo style deadlifts pretty much achieve the same thing - high rep conventional deads require the use of duct tape, IMO.

I, and my buddy, and another teammate or two all noticed improvements as we increased our protein - we were also drinking, at least, gallon of milk per day. I used to get mine from ironmind.com - not sweetened, decent flavor, and reasonable price. If you work out hard enough, I don't know that there's much of a limit to how much protein your body can use.

*(I broke my c3 and C5 years ago)

[JeffWard]

Jeff,

You are so far off base it's not even funny. To think that the press is a movement unhealthy for the shoulder is so ridiculous I'm not even going to waste my time writing a book explaining why. Also, you have a severe lack of understanding in mechanics behind the squat and deadlift. Or maybe people just never have to stand up from the toilet or pick anything heavy up off the ground in your world? I hope you understand hominids have been occupying a loaded or unloaded squatting position for hundreds of thousands of years longer than the psuedo-experts have been saying they are bad for you.

You are confusing good genetics with proper training techniques.

I'm truthfully not interested in discussing this with you further, since whatever I say will no doubt fall on deaf ears. I urge you to brush up on your anatomy and learn from an experienced coach -someone who works with athletes- how to squat, deadlift, and press.

Jake,

I respect your opinions, and your inputs, and your credentials... but we train different athletes, in different worlds.

Myself, my clients, and my students; have different goals than yours, and your (Mark's) students/clients. These goals include aesthetic measures as well as performance measures, with the aesthetic predominating. I don't base my "success" by pure body size, or by feats of strength in 3 (or 4) specific lifting events. I am in no way a power lifter, and have no concern over "how much can you bench?", or my time on "The Girls" of Crossfit.

You are correct, in that the human body has been lifting things off the ground, and that "hominids have been occupying a loaded or unloaded squatting position for hundreds of thousands of years"... This does not mean that training the with an Olympic barbell is the "best way to train them". The majority of people doing heavy barbell work are NOT doing it under the watchful eye of a professional strength and conditioning coach. And the mechanics involved, and the associated risks, are inordinately dangerous for MOST people training alone. Also, using the same mentality: if barbells are the best apparatus for developing multifaceted human fitness/strength, then bows and arrows are the best apparatus for fighting wars, since armies have used them since well before Christ... far before the advent of a gun, or a GPS guided supersonic stealth cruise missile.

I don't doubt your ability to: "coach someone how to squat, deadlift, and press." But outside of those three discreet events is where 95% of the health and fitness business lies... and where the future of the fitness business lies.

You coach and train that 5%.

I'll work with the other 95...

I've been inside the premiere training facilities in the world, including NFL facilities. Yes... there are plenty of power platforms and barbells. There are also BOSU balls, Pilates Reformers, and elastic stretch chords.

I wish you much success in your business. Spreading the message of health and fitness in an ever fattening and unhealthy world is a great thing. Keep doing what you're doing, and keep posting here... but keep your mind open to the evolution of the business, and to other viewpoints. We will agree to disagree, as to the best way to get "fitter", but we very much agree with the need this world has for both.

Jeff

[js82]

Where's the flexibility problem? I use a yoke to squat now, to avoid irritating my neck*, that or a "bent bar" can eliminate the shoulder and wrist discomfort people often have.

if its perceived as a flexibility problem in the knees or hips, its more frequently a technique problem. (I did my first squats w.o. a weight, sitting onto a box, to get used to sitting back and down)

However, sumo style deadlifts pretty much achieve the same thing - high rep conventional deads require the use of duct tape, IMO.

I, and my buddy, and another teammate or two all noticed improvements as we increased our protein - we were also drinking, at least, gallon of milk per day. I used to get mine from ironmind.com - not sweetened, decent flavor, and reasonable price. If you work out hard enough, I don't know that there's much of a limit to how much protein your body can use.

*(I broke my c3 and C5 years ago)

When I get near parallel I can't keep my back straight unless my knees move forward a lot. If I don't move my knees forward my back will round. In order for me to keep my back straight when going ATG my heels have to come off the floor. This is all olympic style btw, not PL style. Same problem when sitting back with a wide stance though, but of course it's not possible to do ATG with a wide stance. All this is true even if there's no weight on the bar. The only difference is that when there's no weight on the bar it doesn't hurt me to not keep my back straight. I'm pretty sure this is a very common problem. As for deadlifts, I'm guilty of poor form too. But for some reason deadlifts don't hurt my back.

I'll try upping my protein intake then. Easy to do. Thanks.

[Aglifter]

? Never heard of an Olympic style squat? The only Olympic lifts are snatch, clean and jerk, and an overhead press - eliminated from competition many years ago.

it sounds like you may not be pushing your butt back at the bottom - hard to explain, but easy to show. There's a difference between leaning forward to keep your balance, and rounding your back.

Are there any powerlifters in your area? They're usually pretty helpful on showing technique. You really need a powerlifter or Olympic lifted to reliably show you techniques. (Personally, I know two good trainers who aren't powerlifters, both have competed in strongman, but strongman competitors often have a different take on squats and deads, and the wrong one for your purposes.)

For bottom work, I usually did sumo off blocks - if you do it in front of a mirror, its usually pretty easy to judge your own form in that lift.

I wouldn't worry about bottom work quite yet - I think the first thing to do is just get a good, below parallel squat, and a good deadlift form. Once you have that, pause or box squat can help improve your ability to get lower.

[Jay870]

? Never heard of an Olympic style squat? The only Olympic lifts are snatch, clean and jerk, and an overhead press - eliminated from competition many years ago.

I think he is simply referring to the stance... more of shoulder width foot placement high bar squat vs. the ultra-wide low bar PL style.

[XRe]

Sounds like potentially two things. I'm going to guess js82 has a general hip flexibility issue, most likely tight hamstrings and glutes (this is where the back pain is probably coming from when he has good form). I'm going to also guess he's not keeping his knees pushed out (a glute strength issue - it robs you of form in about that position of the squat, because your hips have nowhere to go, and it robs you of power because your glutes and adductors aren't engaged).

There's a lot of things you can do to improve hip mobility and flexibility in the hams and glutes - you'll also want to work on freeing up piriformis and psoas. Do some googling and start working on them! One good place is http://mobilitywod.blogspot.com

Then, keep your knees pushed out as you squat. It'll feel like they're really wide, but if you look in a mirror, you'll see that they're actually tracking over your feet that way. Keep them wide as you lift out of the bottom.

Other than that, totally agree with Aglifter that you should seek some help for form, and with Jake that you need to eat like a mad man

[js82]

Yes, that's what I mean by olympic style squat - high bar and somewhat narrow stance. I just noticed though looking through some olympic squat pictures that my squat is really narrow.

XRe, that sounds like it actually. When I try to go deep I feel like I have to relax some muscles in the process in order to keep my heels down. I don't know anything about keeping my knees pushed out because I don't do wide stance squats. Even sumo deadlifts hurt my back actually.

Anyway, I wasn't actually looking for help with regards to my squats. I have long given up on my form. I was just saying that I think 2x12s are good for novices.

Thanks for the advice you guys have given though. Gotta eat more!

[Six]

Anyway, I wasn't actually looking for help with regards to my squats.

Nonetheless, read this and see if it makes sense

http://startingstrength.com/articles/active_hip_2_rippetoe.pdf

[Aglifter]

Hmm... I don't know that a normal person can hit depth w. a high bar and a narrow stance. The bar position is, essentially, adjusted to where the "shelf" is on your back/where it is comfortable - but if it's too high (it takes awhile to learn to be comfortable in the lower position), then you might not be able to keep your weight back enough.

There can be a fair bit of strength w. a narrow stance, but you need to have your legs wide enough apart to be able to lean forward, if you're going to get below parallel.

If sumos hurt your back, perhaps you should try starting w. the weights on blocks, at a height which is comfortable, then work your way down... Really, it sounds like you need to find someone who knows their technique to help you. (There are very good odds that such a person is NOT a "trainer" unless the trainer also has a competition background. I've never met a decent trainer* who hadn't competed - but I've met plenty of complete hacks, charlatans, and outright liars. *I have met some crossfit guys w. a background in either the military or amateur boxing, who could probably get you conditioned, and their development didn't look too out of whack, but I don't know about their technique.)

Time spent perfecting form, and eliminating structural imbalances will always come back to you - both in increased health/injury reduction, and outright performance.

[badchad]

Really, it sounds like you need to find someone who knows their technique to help you.

Also he could post a video.

[js82]

I've tried pushing my knees out and I still have the same problem - my legs want to move forward or my back will round.

On youtube you can find videos of people doing full squats olympic style.

I couldn't agree more that the typical personal trainer sucks. In the gym I go to I see the PT telling people to hold dumbbells in both hands for side bends