Starting Starting Strength

[Aglifter]

Cottage cheese in the evening is very useful - really helped me during competition. "Deadlifts are good for the soul" is an wonderful phrase.

The only thing you can really mess up on a clean is dipping too low - the weight needs to, very gently, land in your hands - any shock, and you can really booger up your wrists once you start using some weight.

Bench is a foolish exercise, but no one ever listens to me about it - at least find a powerlifter to teach you how to do it. It achieves nothing not better achieved by a standing press.

[Aglifter]

? I just saw you're in Columbia, SC - if Mike Johnston is still active there, he would be a GREAT trainer for you.

[CJDOUBLETAP]

Cottage cheese in the evening is very useful - really helped me during competition. "Deadlifts are good for the soul" is an wonderful phrase.

The only thing you can really mess up on a clean is dipping too low - the weight needs to, very gently, land in your hands - any shock, and you can really booger up your wrists once you start using some weight.

Bench is a foolish exercise, but no one ever listens to me about it - at least find a powerlifter to teach you how to do it. It achieves nothing not better achieved by a standing press.

I agree with your bench comments.

Cleaning is relatively easy, just keep the weight close to your body. During a power clean (from the floor) keep the bar practically rubbing up against your shins. My football lifting coach always tells us "up not out" while we do cleans.

Does anyone here ever use the jerk for a lift?... No, not the kind of jerking I'm sure some of you are thinking...

[Aglifter]

I usually C&J'd instead of just cleaning... Actually, I may have always done so. Snatch was always the most fun, though - and safer, IMO, than C&J, provided you know how to bail.

[Six]

Starting week 3 tomorrow, time to introduce a few accessory exercises. I think I'm starting to get the hang of the Power Clean with a couple reps feeling nice and smooth. I catch myself pulling with the arms now and then, but it's getting better.

"Deadlifts are good for the soul" is an wonderful phrase.

Squats... You pick up the weight and start the long descent knowing you still gotta come all the way back out of the hole...

Deads lack that build up of "God this is gonna suck" that squats provide, they just go straight into "God this sucks".

[CJDOUBLETAP]

Squats... You pick up the weight and start the long descent knowing you still gotta come all the way back out of the hole...

Deads lack that build up of "God this is gonna suck" that squats provide, they just go straight into "God this sucks".

[Aglifter]

That's why you start your squats from the bottom Actually, bottom squats should be left until you're comfortable w. your form, and there's someone to look, and make sure you're in good position.

Technically, deadlifts were supposed to be a bit nastier, since you have to accelerate the weight from the bottom. (If you're nuts, and don't care about your knees, and are competing, you pull down w. your squat, let the weight bend the bar down across your back, then follow the weights out of the hole on the upward movement - not a bright thing to do, but it'll get some more pounds on your max.)

[Aglifter]

Since you're not competing, go ahead and pull off blocks - get high enough to let your feet just barely fit under the bar... (Personally, I just mess around w. my old strongman equipment these days.)

[XRe]

I catch myself pulling with the arms now and then, but it's getting better.

Use more weight...

[js82]

For complete beginners I think 2x12s are more effective. Things like 5x5 and 5-3-1 are more for intermediate lifters.

Your weight gains will definitely slow down. In my first few months of exercise I easily gained 20 pounds, but it took me a year to gain the next 10 pounds. Now, trying to gain a few pounds is extremely difficult.

Don't forget to do the concetric portions of your exercises as explosively as possible!

[Jake Di Vita]

Starting Strength uses a 3 x 5 model for the most part, not 5x5 or 5-3-1, which as you said, are better saved for intermediate lifters.

I'd like to hear the reasons why you believe 2x12's are more effective for novices.

[js82]

Starting Strength uses a 3 x 5 model for the most part, not 5x5 or 5-3-1, which as you said, are better saved for intermediate lifters.

I'd like to hear the reasons why you believe 2x12's are more effective for novices.

First I just wanna say I'm not a training expert or anything. Here's my reasoning though.

1. Form and safety are important. A novice will adapt to the exercises more steadily with lighter weights and more reps. Proper execution will be easier. Heavy weights are hard to control when one doesn't have much experience with the movements yet. There'll be a tendency to perform the exercises in poor form.

2. A lot of people tend to exercise their ego instead of their body when they go heavy right away. How many people do you see in the gym doing bench presses but don't go anywhere near their chest with the bar? If it's a novice who is using lighter weights because they're doing more reps they won't be embarrassed when they're told to use the full ROM cuz they can still perform a few reps. But when a novice goes straight to heavy their egos take a hit when they get pinned by the bar after trying to do full ROM. They usually go back to performing their 1/2 of 1/4 ROM reps.

3. High reps(8-15)/lighter weights induces more hypertrophy while low reps(1-5)/heavy weights results in more neural adaptations. Doesn't it make more sense to build more muscle mass before developing an efficient nervous system rather than developing an efficient nervous system then gaining muscle mass that will require further neural adaptations? I think this is the reason why most periodization schedules start with high reps.

[Six]

Since this is my thread, I'll respond from my perspective.

1. Anyone can perform a deadlift/squat/press/bench/whatever at light weights, it's not until stuff starts to get heavy that you realize you never learned good form - you just got away with something that looked like good form because weights were light. IMHO: If you can barely do it with barely good enough form - it's light enough.

2. Meh, I don't have that kinda ego I guess. My form might suck, but it's a lack of experience, not an excess of ego.

3. Not all hypertrophy is the same.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Six

[Jake Di Vita]

1. Form and safety are important. A novice will adapt to the exercises more steadily with lighter weights and more reps. Proper execution will be easier. Heavy weights are hard to control when one doesn't have much experience with the movements yet. There'll be a tendency to perform the exercises in poor form.

Of course form and safety are important. Which is why you learn the movements first at a weight you can handle and progressively add weight from there. The whole premise behind novice linear progression is the weight that the novice uses is not "heavy" in terms of their genetic potential, which means they are able to recover and adapt to the stress between days of training. If the stress (or food intake, or rest) is inadequate, the trainee won't advance. I taught myself how to squat from reading books and watching videos as soon as I started linear progression. No serious injuries here. Naturally a good coach will always be the better choice, but to go off the program because of lack of experience just doesn't fly with me.

Generally I can teach someone how to squat properly within a half hour of them walking into the gym, (this includes my Mom who is in her 50s and had never touched a barbell before). As per Rip's recommendations, the proper weight for the first workout is one in which the bar slows down only slightly on the 5th rep.

2. A lot of people tend to exercise their ego instead of their body when they go heavy right away. How many people do you see in the gym doing bench presses but don't go anywhere near their chest with the bar? If it's a novice who is using lighter weights because they're doing more reps they won't be embarrassed when they're told to use the full ROM cuz they can still perform a few reps. But when a novice goes straight to heavy their egos take a hit when they get pinned by the bar after trying to do full ROM. They usually go back to performing their 1/2 of 1/4 ROM reps.

Once again, ego is another problem entirely. If ego is the problem, they will still load up your 2 x 12s and hurt themselves just as easily. I don't really like to use the average gym goer as an example. Yes, I'm aware most people that "work out" have ego, form, laziness, and eating habits that will limit their progress no matter what program they are doing. And if the novice is using weight that they can't do 3 sets of 5 deep squats with, they aren't doing the program.

3. High reps(8-15)/lighter weights induces more hypertrophy while low reps(1-5)/heavy weights results in more neural adaptations. Doesn't it make more sense to build more muscle mass before developing an efficient nervous system rather than developing an efficient nervous system then gaining muscle mass that will require further neural adaptations? I think this is the reason why most periodization schedules start with high reps.

The high rep hypertrophy you are referring to is called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is a net gain in muscle size with very little change in force production of the muscles. Low reps, as in 3 sets of 5, are by far the best choice for a novice looking to get strong. I added 120 pounds to my 5 rep max on the squat in 2 months using linear progression, squatting 3x5 on M/W/F and adding weight everyday. Does anyone think there is any chance that I'd add the same weight in the same time using 2 x 12s? I'd bet the farm it wouldn't happen. I'm sorry but your perception of how human adaptation works is greatly flawed. The idea that low reps doesn't cause the CNS to adapt just doesn't make sense to me.

I'd highly recommend you read Practical Programming by Mark Rippetoe. This will likely clear up some misconceptions you may have (I know it did for me).

[js82]

1. Form and safety are important. A novice will adapt to the exercises more steadily with lighter weights and more reps. Proper execution will be easier. Heavy weights are hard to control when one doesn't have much experience with the movements yet. There'll be a tendency to perform the exercises in poor form.

Of course form and safety are important. Which is why you learn the movements first at a weight you can handle and progressively add weight from there. The whole premise behind novice linear progression is the weight that the novice uses is not "heavy" in terms of their genetic potential, which means they are able to recover and adapt to the stress between days of training. If the stress (or food intake, or rest) is inadequate, the trainee won't advance. I taught myself how to squat from reading books and watching videos as soon as I started linear progression. No serious injuries here. Naturally a good coach will always be the better choice, but to go off the program because of lack of experience just doesn't fly with me.

Generally I can teach someone how to squat properly within a half hour of them walking into the gym, (this includes my Mom who is in her 50s and had never touched a barbell before). As per Rip's recommendations, the proper weight for the first workout is one in which the bar slows down only slightly on the 5th rep.

2. A lot of people tend to exercise their ego instead of their body when they go heavy right away. How many people do you see in the gym doing bench presses but don't go anywhere near their chest with the bar? If it's a novice who is using lighter weights because they're doing more reps they won't be embarrassed when they're told to use the full ROM cuz they can still perform a few reps. But when a novice goes straight to heavy their egos take a hit when they get pinned by the bar after trying to do full ROM. They usually go back to performing their 1/2 of 1/4 ROM reps.

Once again, ego is another problem entirely. If ego is the problem, they will still load up your 2 x 12s and hurt themselves just as easily. I don't really like to use the average gym goer as an example. Yes, I'm aware most people that "work out" have ego, form, laziness, and eating habits that will limit their progress no matter what program they are doing. And if the novice is using weight that they can't do 3 sets of 5 deep squats with, they aren't doing the program.

3. High reps(8-15)/lighter weights induces more hypertrophy while low reps(1-5)/heavy weights results in more neural adaptations. Doesn't it make more sense to build more muscle mass before developing an efficient nervous system rather than developing an efficient nervous system then gaining muscle mass that will require further neural adaptations? I think this is the reason why most periodization schedules start with high reps.

The high rep hypertrophy you are referring to is called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is a net gain in muscle size with very little change in force production of the muscles. Low reps, as in 3 sets of 5, are by far the best choice for a novice looking to get strong. I added 120 pounds to my 5 rep max on the squat in 2 months using linear progression, squatting 3x5 on M/W/F and adding weight everyday. Does anyone think there is any chance that I'd add the same weight in the same time using 2 x 12s? I'd bet the farm it wouldn't happen. I'm sorry but your perception of how human adaptation works is greatly flawed. The idea that low reps doesn't cause the CNS to adapt just doesn't make sense to me.

I'd highly recommend you read Practical Programming by Mark Rippetoe. This will likely clear up some misconceptions you may have (I know it did for me).

It still stands that doing 12 reps of lighter weights than 5 reps of heavier weights is safer and better for form. Sure, some people don't need to start off with light weights to learn the form and do the exercise safely but that doesn't apply to everybody nor does it apply to the majority.

Yes, ego is a whole problem by itself. But doing lighter weights with more reps makes it easier to transition for most people because if they need to reduce the weight it's not by much and the weights they're using don't give them that ego in the first place. But when people go heavy they tend to develop that ego so they tend to stick to poor execution rather than reducing the weight. And c'mon, when you tell somebody they only need to do 5 reps they'll tend to go heavy.

I never said low reps doesn't cause CNS development. In fact I stated that it does. I'm not saying stick to 2x12s to get strong; I'm just saying start with it. I do 5-3-1s and 5x5s all the time. it's actually what I do most of the time. For novices though I'd suggest starting with 2x12s.

This is like arguing about squats vs deadlifts or split body routines vs whole body routines.

I do read a lot from t-nation btw, and I'm guessing you do too.

[Jake Di Vita]

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but suffice it to say that I don't really agree with anything you said. The objections just don't hold water to me.

No, I don't read T-nation hardly at all. btdt

Have you read Starting Strength and done the program as written? If not, I'd urge you to do that. Not only am I talking from the point of view of some of the best coaches in the world, but I'm talking from my own experience as both a trainee and coach.

[js82]

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but suffice it to say that I don't really agree with anything you said. The objections just don't hold water to me.

No, I don't read T-nation hardly at all. btdt

Have you read Starting Strength and done the program as written? If not, I'd urge you to do that. Not only am I talking from the point of view of some of the best coaches in the world, but I'm talking from my own experience as both a trainee and coach.

I haven't read starting strength but Mark Rippetoe has an article on t-nation that I'm assuming is a summary of his book. He outlines the 3x5 program.

You're recommending that I do 3x5s instead of 5x5s or 5-3-1s? My gains have definitely slowed to almost a halt after having trained for 4.5 years.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'd highly recommend reading the full version of Starting Strength and Practical Programming.

That really depends on a lot of variables. What is your age, height, weight? I also don't know your current level of adaptation - but if you have never done linear progression before, it would be a good idea to do it.

For an intermediate lifter, Wendler's 5-3-1 or a Texas Method variant are great choices.

And for what it's worth, there is no such thing as a slow gainer. Either the training stimulus is not good enough, you aren't recovering enough, or you aren't eating enough (90% of the time, this is the problem).

[js82]

I'd highly recommend reading the full version of Starting Strength and Practical Programming.

That really depends on a lot of variables. What is your age, height, weight? I also don't know your current level of adaptation - but if you have never done linear progression before, it would be a good idea to do it.

For an intermediate lifter, Wendler's 5-3-1 or a Texas Method variant are great choices.

And for what it's worth, there is no such thing as a slow gainer. Either the training stimulus is not good enough, you aren't recovering enough, or you aren't eating enough (90% of the time, this is the problem).

I'm a small guy

Age=28

Height=5'5"

Weight=~145lbs

Bench = 100KG(220lbs) x 2

Deadlift = 160KG(352lbs)

Squat = Can't keep my lower back straight to go parallel. Did 105KG (231lbs) ATG olympic style (feet less than shoulder width) that resulted in back pain of course.

Chinup (underhand) = BW + 45KG(99lbs). I can do 45.7KG if I cheat a little by using my chin to push

Done linear progression. Yeah, I'm probably not eating and recovering enough. I don't get 7 hours of sleep every night and find myself always hungry. I have to eat a ridiculous amount to gain any weight.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you weigh 145 pounds, you quite simply have not done the program. You can't do linear progression without gaining weight while being extremely skinny - it doesn't work that way.

When I was doing linear progression I needed over 5000 calories a day to make progress. The eating is quite literally harder than the act of lifting. I was eating until I literally wanted to puke...and then eating more...everyday...for months.

If you do it properly, you should be gaining 1-3 pounds of bodyweight between training sessions for quite a while at first.

If you can't keep your spine neutral while squatting, you are not squatting correctly.

There are no such thing as hard gainers, there are only people who refuse to eat enough.

Check out this thread for what happens when the program is done correctly

[js82]

If you weigh 145 pounds, you quite simply have not done the program. You can't do linear progression without gaining weight while being extremely skinny - it doesn't work that way.

When I was doing linear progression I needed over 5000 calories a day to make progress. The eating is quite literally harder than the act of lifting. I was eating until I literally wanted to puke...and then eating more...everyday...for months.

If you do it properly, you should be gaining 1-3 pounds of bodyweight between training sessions for quite a while at first.

If you can't keep your spine neutral while squatting, you are not squatting correctly.

There are no such thing as hard gainers, there are only people who refuse to eat enough.

Check out this thread for what happens when the program is done correctly

Before I started working out I weighed 115lbs. Yeah, eating tons is much much harder than lifting. I believe I'm definitely not eating enough. I have done linear progression though.

Going off topic a bit, if I find the recoil from a 9mm pushing my body back do I just need to gain weight or am I not bending my elbows enough? I'm leaning forward a lot already.

[Jake Di Vita]

How long did you do linear progression for? How much total weight did you gain? What did your lifts go to and what were they at?

I don't doubt that you have "done linear progression." However; looking at your body weight, the fact you have not read the book, and that you can't squat correctly leads me to have doubts you did linear progression correctly. Once you answer the first questions in this post I'll have a clearer picture.

Let me put it like this, I'm 2 inches taller than you and outweigh you by more than 40 pounds. Unless you are an absolute genetic freak, it just isn't going to be possible for a male to be strong at 145 pounds. Also keep in mind I'm no genetic freak by any sense of the word, and I gained over 20 pounds of bodyweight my first month of linear progression.

The reasons your 9mm is pushing your body back is very likely a mechanical issue with your grip/stance. I think you should gain weight, but that would only be a band aid for the problem.

[JeffWard]

I prefer to train from concepts designed in THIS century... LOL

Bench Press, Dead-lift, and Squat evolved out of lifting train axles in the wild west...

I haven't touched a barbell in about 10 years, and I'm 245lbs at about 7-8% body-fat, at 6'4". I've spent half my career doing post-rehab work with guys who USE to lift heavy barbells every week... who now have serious shoulder and back injuries. Chronic injury... I train almost exclusively with dumbbells, cables, and (modern) machines. I also use BOSUs balls, and balance work (which makes me a better shooter).

Simply considering that your hands are always a fixed distance apart, while the shoulder joint moves in an arc, extplains the massive numbers of long-term wrist and shoulder injuries associated with barbell training. Add in the torques created about the L5-Sacral joint... from barbell squats and dead-lifts is just ridiculously high risk for no more reward...

Background:

- 16 year career Personal Trainer, current Director of Education, National Personal Training Institute, Tampa (www.nptifitness.com)

- Senior Functional Fitness Specialist, Post-Rehab, Off-Season Professional Athletic Conditioning...

- New Title: Biomechanical Thermodynamic Endocrinologist..

- Etc, etc, etc...

JeffWard

[Jake Di Vita]

Jeff,

You are so far off base it's not even funny. To think that the press is a movement unhealthy for the shoulder is so ridiculous I'm not even going to waste my time writing a book explaining why. Also, you have a severe lack of understanding in mechanics behind the squat and deadlift. Or maybe people just never have to stand up from the toilet or pick anything heavy up off the ground in your world? I hope you understand hominids have been occupying a loaded or unloaded squatting position for hundreds of thousands of years longer than the psuedo-experts have been saying they are bad for you.

You are confusing good genetics with proper training techniques.

I'm truthfully not interested in discussing this with you further, since whatever I say will no doubt fall on deaf ears. I urge you to brush up on your anatomy and learn from an experienced coach -someone who works with athletes- how to squat, deadlift, and press.

[Aglifter]

A) I'm a big fan of (1x20) squat for gainers.

I'd also encourage over-head press and dips more than bench.

I don't think you're eating nearly enough. Admittedly, I was competing as a SHW, but I usually ate oatmeal for breakfast, cottage cheese and bananas mid morning, lunch, afternoon snack - usually fruit and peanut butter, then dinner, and 1.5# cottage cheese at night.

Continuously, through the day, I worked my way through 3.5# of lean meat, and about 1# of vegetables, along w. some natural yogurt - when you're trying to gain muscle, an empty stomach is the enemy. As far as shakes, I drank 1 gr to 1.5 gr of whey protein/# bodyweight a day, including a light shake during the workouts - as a lightweight, I think you might want to try 2.0 gr/#bodyweight - you really can't overdue it. We tried going up to 3.0 gr/# bodyweight, and still got gains, but it becomes a cost issue.

You're better off spending more money on larger amounts of good food, than on supplements (Whey is cheap, however, from the right suppliers - I didn't know any competitive strongmen or powerlifters who regularly used creatine past the initial fad. One still did in his competition drink, but no one really thought it was beneficial.).

More or less, if its healthy, and you can stomach it, eat it.

The biggest gainer we had was a young man who started at 135 and 6'3", and was 195~205, and solid after 2 years. (Admittedly, some of that was probably part of maturing, but the other part is realizing that most men can be a healthy, solid 200#, at least.

As for Jeff...

If you want to claim to be an endocrinologist, I presume you have a MD, perhaps a PhD? Pretty sure only an M.D. could claim to be an endocrinologist - you'd certainly have to be one to see people in that fashion...

Edited February 2, 2011 by Aglifter