Bill Schwab Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Okay here's the scenario: shoot house, CoF posted does not match the actual CoF because the RO is trying to throw shooters off. Is this within IDPA rules or was the RO out of bounds? P.S. I feel like a similar question was asked recently but I can't locate the thread I'm thinking of, so I'm sorry in advance if I'm regurgitating something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 I'd have to say not legal, though I have no rule to cite. I think there's also a potential safety issue there, say if a competitor moves past a target array because he didn't know where they were...then goes back to try to pick them up. ROs can introduce uncertainty without specifically misleading competitors. Keep the stages blind, or hang indicators on targets (no-shoots wear hats, for e.g.), and then move them around between competitors. This way, the competitor knows he can't be sure what he will encounter, and will excercise due caution. Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 If it doesn't induce a possible safety violation it's a good idea in my eyes. It will sure force people to maintain an open mind before they go into a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Good question for the powers to be at "head quarters". If you have to lie to shooters in an attempt to confuse them...oh never mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahana Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Bill, Good question.......... I have looked, as have others I know and are yet to find anything in the LGB that addresses written COF discriptions. I took (not without protest) a procedural over the discrepency in the written COF discription and what was said in a walk through.......... THE COF said to aproach a barracade and shoot an array of targets from behind cover of the barricade. I had a great run and was happy until I heard them say I had one proceural for shooting from the right side of the barracade......... I say, so what ......they say you have to shoot from the left side of the barracade I go back look at the COF, tell them to show me where it says that.........it doesn't.........the stage designer (also the MD) says it was covered in the walk through I, (as well as some other shooters) say I didn't hear that...... .....they say one procedural......... I looked in the LGB to make my arguement and couldn't find any rule addressing the stage description or COF requirements............ Addressing another issue ...........stage design should be designed to challenge a shooter, not to try and make him screw up.........another peeve of mine....... laters, gr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I'm not clear on your question. Was this supposed to be a surprise stage? If so, I think he can do what he wants to throw the competitor off. Did you not get an IDPA style "walk through"? The written course procedures should match the verbal walk through. If any changes are made, they should be noted on the written course procedures. If the match staff is negligent in doing this, they risk alienating their customers. Should there be a rule to enforce this? I don't know. How about showing some respect for the shooter that goes out of his way to attend your match. Being an @ defeats that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted January 4, 2003 Author Share Posted January 4, 2003 Was this supposed to be a surprise stage? If so, I think he can do what he wants to throw the competitor off. Did you not get an IDPA style "walk through"? I guess it was supposed to be a surprise...it sure was to me, LOL. No walk through was given on this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 So...what good is a written stage description then? How can the stage be a "surprise" to everybody? The last shooter on the squad might just notice that ol' Ringo and Paul got a penalty...and he just might catch on and shoot it different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Bill, The only thing I can find in the IDPA rule book is where it says "Stupid is stupid: Was the written description left over from the last match or was it posted just to confuse shooters? Was anything unsafe? I personally don't like surprise stages very well because they are not the same surprise for everybody. Just sounds like poor stage design to me. I have seen people design stages to try and "get" the top shooters. It doesn't work. They just "get" the average or beginner shooters. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Schwab Posted January 4, 2003 Author Share Posted January 4, 2003 It was posted to confuse the shooters. And yeah, I don't like surprise stages much either, for the same reason. Just sounds like poor stage design to me. I have seen people design stages to try and "get" the top shooters. It doesn't work. They just "get" the average or beginner shooters. I don't know Bill, it got me pretty good, LOL. I had the stage description committed to memory. I went through the stage and was unloading when the RO asked "Are you done?", I located the extra target, loaded back up, shot the target, started unloading, and was asked the same question again, so I loaded back up for yet another target that was cleverly hidden. To make matters worse, before you entered the shoot house you were seated at a table and had to engage three targets. The CoF description said to engage these three targets each with one to the body and then go back and punch them in the head. I did so, but others went body/head, body/head, body/head and were not penalized. Kinda makes me not trust ANY of the posted course desciptions. I just wanted to know if I was, at the time, out of line for being slightly peeved by this course design. I shouldn't complain though, we have a small club and I don't help out setting up & breaking down like I used to. I don't think any of this constituted a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I think for local club matches it is OK to do strange stuff once in a while. Nothing is on the line like a state or Nationals match. I hate it when a big match is so screwed up you wish you had gone shopping instead. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Each squad is allowed a brief walk through as the COF is being explained (page 30). If it was being presented to the shooters as a surprise stage, why was there a course description? If the targets at the table were of equal threat, or distance, they should have been engaged in tactical sequence (1 shot each, then reengage). Best thing is to read and understand the rule book, then ask a lot of questions before you shoot to avoid any misunderstandings. The match organizers don't always read and understand the rules themselves. (Edited by noname at 8:06 pm on Jan. 5, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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